150/300 bellagio hand
 

6 handed or so bellagio 150/300. Been playing with seat 1 for a couple hours...mostly 5 handed. He opens a decent amount of hands and is simple to play postflop because he plays very honest ABC post-flop poker and doesn't make weak un-trusting call downs. He's a young guy trying to play well and would beat weak opponents for sure so he's decent...but overly observant opponent wouldn't have too many problems with him.

I'm in seat 3 and have a good image. I haven't been playing wildly and have been playing pretty tight...and haven't gotten out of line at all.

Seat 5 is a high stakes NL holdem/pl omaha pro who I'm pretty sure is a very successful player. We played 80/160 the day before for like 15 minutes and the only hand that came up was I raised A3o on the button, he 3 bet out of the sb, I 4 bet, he 5 bet, i called, flopped a 3 and called the flop and turn and river went check check and I beat his AJo. This is his first orbit at the 150 game.

Seat 1 raises utg, I 3 bet A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 spots later

Seat 5 (my imediate right...button) cold calls 3 bets, all fold, seat 1 calls.

Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
seat 1 checks, I bet, seat 5 calls, seat 1 folds.

Turn 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I check, seat 3 bets, I call.

Turn J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check, seat 3 bets, I call.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

well, cant really put him on anything but AQ, but folding that river would be tough... pot is pretty effing big, so seems fine.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

I think I can fold the river a fair amount of the time here. Depends alot on just the general flow of the game I guess.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

I am assuming seat 3, is actually seat 5 the high stakes NL guy.

I like check raising the turn. I think it is good for metagame consderations. Also, I think it could induce a crazy 3 bet from smaller pocket pairs. It could also cause weak call downs etc.

If he does have a better ace, then you have a strong draw at him, and I don't think he is going to raise your river bet without a monster if you c/r the turn.

I think if he is bluffing and you c/r him, hes gonna go nuts from time to time and 3/bet and bet the river.

Either way, it is likely to fluster him, and your hand nearly merits a raise for value. I am not sure how wide his call 3 cold range is here, but I am assuming it could involve some wierd hands, JTs, pocket pairs...


blake

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

c/r the turn.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

I like it

[ QUOTE ]
Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5club
seat 1 checks, I bet, seat 5 calls, seat 1 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

He cold called a 3 bet against a player he probably thinks is solid. On the flop, he simply calls, giving the original raiser, who very well could have a weak A great odds to call and no good reason to fold. There's absolutely no draw on the board. He's usually very agressive. His simple call here scares the hell out of me.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I check, seat 3 bets, I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. You picked up a flush draw to the nuts. You have lots of outs to improve. However, I still think you're drawing, so I don't see the point in either betting or check-raising. If you are somehow ahead, he has very few outs, so if you happen to give a free card, it's not horrible.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check, seat 3 bets, I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Changes nothing. Pots probably big enough to warrant a call down on the off chance he actually just has Ax
, KK, QQ, etc. However, I'm not completely sure you actually win this often enough to make the call profitable, if the call is bad, it's not by much.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

Yuk, folding here is no good IMO. He has done nothing but bet when checked to. How can a fold be right here ever? The description of this player was not straight forward.....

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

I can't see any other way to play this hand. I know that it is tempting to raise the turn but I see absolutely no point in it, assuming Seat 5 will raise with a good ace. I assume you are going to c/r a 9 or heart river?

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yuk, folding here is no good IMO. He has done nothing but bet when checked to. How can a fold be right here ever? The description of this player was not straight forward.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I would expect his range of hands to be AK, AQ, KK, AA and QQ. Look at preflop, what do you think he's calling 3 cold with from a UTG raise and a tight reraiser, and then calling the flop?

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

Preflop, I wouldve folded this hand to an UTG raise in a 6 handed game, but i understand you had your reasons for reraising. Postflop: I play it exactly the same as you did. When the NL player Coldcalls 3 bets preflop and calls the flop on this rag board, bells have to go off. Simply put, the NL player either has a better ace or a pocket pair, since you have outs to beat him when you are behind, checking and calling is the right move in my opinion. If you bet the turn two bad things can happen, you may get raised by a better hand or the NL player may fold his 2 outer being convinced you have an Ace. By checking the turn, you can induce the NL player to bet a weaker hand like a lower pocket pair, and you save money when you avoid his turn raise when he has a better hand. Checkraising the turn is just absurd, since the NL player will never fold a better hand, All a checkraise will do is make the NL player fold his 2 outer which is exactly what we dont want, and theres always the possibilty you get 3 bet by a better hand. Once you check and call the turn, I think you must check and call the river since you may have induced the NL player to bet a hand like KK which you can beat.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yuk, folding here is no good IMO. He has done nothing but bet when checked to. How can a fold be right here ever? The description of this player was not straight forward.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I would expect his range of hands to be AK, AQ, KK, AA and QQ. Look at preflop, what do you think he's calling 3 cold with from a UTG raise and a tight reraiser, and then calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a 6 handed high stakes game, his range is certainly wider than that. I would imagine that villian would not describe BK as a tight reraiser.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yuk, folding here is no good IMO. He has done nothing but bet when checked to. How can a fold be right here ever? The description of this player was not straight forward.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I would expect his range of hands to be AK, AQ, KK, AA and QQ. Look at preflop, what do you think he's calling 3 cold with from a UTG raise and a tight reraiser, and then calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he caps all of those, except maybe AQ.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yuk, folding here is no good IMO. He has done nothing but bet when checked to. How can a fold be right here ever? The description of this player was not straight forward.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I would expect his range of hands to be AK, AQ, KK, AA and QQ. Look at preflop, what do you think he's calling 3 cold with from a UTG raise and a tight reraiser, and then calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a 6 handed high stakes game, his range is certainly wider than that. I would imagine that villian would not describe BK as a tight reraiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the times when I play in live short handed, or to be honest full table games, all the normal players think i am a maniac.

cause I "raise every hand"

I don't actually even raise all that often, but I think some of the young internet players are just viewed as maniacs.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

I really think you should be leading this turn and call a raise, then fold on river unimproved with 95% confidence you were beat. At least you get full value for your hand this way incase you draw out.

I don't think villain will bet the turn without an Ace, and may often check behind here

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

This whole folding for 1 more bet stuff in this type of hand is non-sense. I'm seeing the showdown and that's that.

Just earlier that night I made a play on another sorta decent player with a pair of 8's and got her of AJ HU on a A53T7 board. That's too huge of a huge victory. I'm not going to be that guy.

We're playing semi-short handed and even if calling might be slightly -ev (which I do not believe it is) it will give me some insight into his game as well as help for meta-game reasons.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

I am going to go against the grain and say checkraise the turn.

Going along with the DERB style of play, in this game you need to get people to fear you, and you need them to not be calling your bets with nothing or betting vs you with nothing (and instead simply folding to you because they fear you), and checkraising him on this turn will help towards doing just that. On this board texture (coupled with the PF action) I really don't see him holding that many hands that will three bet you, so even if you're behind it's only costing you one more BB than check calling the turn and river, and if he folds to the turn checkraise this will go miles towards helping you learn that you can steal future pots off this guy -- pots that will be immensely more valuable than the .75BB-.8BB it costs you when you're behind on the turn and do checkraise.

Plus he will maybe even call you down with a worse hand simply out of curiosity (and knowing you're an online player and as such we have a rep for bluffing/spewing too much). Plus he might be winning and you river him anyway and it might momentarily tilt him.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to go against the grain and say checkraise the turn.

Going along with the DERB style of play, in this game you need to get people to fear you, and you need them to not be calling your bets with nothing or betting vs you with nothing (and instead simply folding to you because they fear you), and checkraising him on this turn will help towards doing just that. On this board texture (coupled with the PF action) I really don't see him holding that many hands that will three bet you, so even if you're behind it's only costing you one more BB than check calling the turn and river, and if he folds to the turn checkraise this will go miles towards helping you learn that you can steal future pots off this guy -- pots that will be immensely more valuable than the .75BB-.8BB it costs you when you're behind on the turn and do checkraise.

Plus he will maybe even call you down with a worse hand simply out of curiosity (and knowing you're an online player and as such we have a rep for bluffing/spewing too much). Plus he might be winning and you river him anyway and it might momentarily tilt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, say you c/r him on the turn and he calls you down and now you show this hand. Regardless of whether you won the pot or not, now automatically he is going to fear your turn checks more and check behind more often (AND not make it past the flop without a piece of the board as often), so, you can assume for the next hour in future spots if he does bet the turn, you can fold more often if say you had JJ instead of Ah8h, while all the while, lets say 30 minutes later you flop a set OOP vs him and he calls you on the flop, now you can c/r him AGAIN on the turn if the turn puts a flush/straight redraw out there and he's more likely to 3bet you with TPGK because he saw you c/r weak before when you picked up a redraw (and we know it's more likely he's going to bet the turn if we check because we have pacified him into calling/betting when he has it thanks to the A8 turn c/r that he saw), so now you get yourself excessive action with your monsters.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

If my numbers are right, there's $2800 in the pot on the river and you have to call $300. You lose 9 times it's $2700. You win once it's $2800.

The question of whether or not a high stakes winning pro would bet a worse hand here 1 in 10 seems like a no brainer. Your line seems like the simplest and cheapest way to take advantage of that.

Hijack alert - I'm trying to think of hands he calls 3 cold with 5 handed instead of capping, and I figure AQ/99-JJ.

I've been thinking a lot about the merits of saving bets just coldcalling vs the merits of always re-raising if you're going to play. I've been re-raising much more than ever lately and find it always makes the hand easier to play. The plays are now made against you to see where they're at, vs you trying to do the same when you've been capped.

I wonder how likely you'd have been to check/call it down had he capped it?

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

Nit point...5 bets is the cap at Bellagio. So 4-betting opens up the possibility of being raised again.

Jeff

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

Does everybody agree with reraising a solid playing EP preflop with only A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?
If so, why?

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

I wouldn't call the UTG player solid. He's the type that will check/fold most flops and if not the flop, the turn and if he puts any preasure on you he's got you beat. I'll 3 bet him all day with lots of holdings.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am going to go against the grain and say checkraise the turn.

Going along with the DERB style of play, in this game you need to get people to fear you, and you need them to not be calling your bets with nothing or betting vs you with nothing (and instead simply folding to you because they fear you), and checkraising him on this turn will help towards doing just that. On this board texture (coupled with the PF action) I really don't see him holding that many hands that will three bet you, so even if you're behind it's only costing you one more BB than check calling the turn and river, and if he folds to the turn checkraise this will go miles towards helping you learn that you can steal future pots off this guy -- pots that will be immensely more valuable than the .75BB-.8BB it costs you when you're behind on the turn and do checkraise.

Plus he will maybe even call you down with a worse hand simply out of curiosity (and knowing you're an online player and as such we have a rep for bluffing/spewing too much). Plus he might be winning and you river him anyway and it might momentarily tilt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, say you c/r him on the turn and he calls you down and now you show this hand. Regardless of whether you won the pot or not, now automatically he is going to fear your turn checks more and check behind more often (AND not make it past the flop without a piece of the board as often), so, you can assume for the next hour in future spots if he does bet the turn, you can fold more often if say you had JJ instead of Ah8h, while all the while, lets say 30 minutes later you flop a set OOP vs him and he calls you on the flop, now you can c/r him AGAIN on the turn if the turn puts a flush/straight redraw out there and he's more likely to 3bet you with TPGK because he saw you c/r weak before when you picked up a redraw (and we know it's more likely he's going to bet the turn if we check because we have pacified him into calling/betting when he has it thanks to the A8 turn c/r that he saw), so now you get yourself excessive action with your monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gold.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

Because our opponent is a NL/PLO pro, he can have a wide range here. 55,44,33,22 are just as likely as AQ. He could even have AA. We certainly have to see the showdown, but the best way to get there is pretty complex.
I don't think checkraising this sort of player because we think he will fear us down the line works really well against this type of opponent. It would work much better against the ABC guy. Also, we are in a live game where we may never play with this guy again. He might leave in 5 minutes. Not every decision needs to be a metagame one.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

Right. TY.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

BK I do like your play here. Anyone who says fold to one more bet on river doesn't know what he's talking about. 6 handed high stakes, this is going to a showdown.
I would occasionally checkraise the turn here when a second heart lands if for nothing else to send a clear message that you can't be pushed over. Even if he does call you have many clear outs.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

When I first read BK's post, I agreed with his play. Check-raisng the turn when a second heart hits is old news.

But reading your post, I realize I myself am starting to play too conservatively on the turn. Thinking about the guys I play too conservatively against, they're exactly the guys against whom I fear their turn checks for the reasons you elucidate. I need to up my fear quotient.

Thanks for two insightful posts.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am going to go against the grain and say checkraise the turn.

Going along with the DERB style of play, in this game you need to get people to fear you, and you need them to not be calling your bets with nothing or betting vs you with nothing (and instead simply folding to you because they fear you), and checkraising him on this turn will help towards doing just that. On this board texture (coupled with the PF action) I really don't see him holding that many hands that will three bet you, so even if you're behind it's only costing you one more BB than check calling the turn and river, and if he folds to the turn checkraise this will go miles towards helping you learn that you can steal future pots off this guy -- pots that will be immensely more valuable than the .75BB-.8BB it costs you when you're behind on the turn and do checkraise.

Plus he will maybe even call you down with a worse hand simply out of curiosity (and knowing you're an online player and as such we have a rep for bluffing/spewing too much). Plus he might be winning and you river him anyway and it might momentarily tilt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, say you c/r him on the turn and he calls you down and now you show this hand. Regardless of whether you won the pot or not, now automatically he is going to fear your turn checks more and check behind more often (AND not make it past the flop without a piece of the board as often), so, you can assume for the next hour in future spots if he does bet the turn, you can fold more often if say you had JJ instead of Ah8h, while all the while, lets say 30 minutes later you flop a set OOP vs him and he calls you on the flop, now you can c/r him AGAIN on the turn if the turn puts a flush/straight redraw out there and he's more likely to 3bet you with TPGK because he saw you c/r weak before when you picked up a redraw (and we know it's more likely he's going to bet the turn if we check because we have pacified him into calling/betting when he has it thanks to the A8 turn c/r that he saw), so now you get yourself excessive action with your monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

very nice

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to go against the grain and say checkraise the turn.

Going along with the DERB style of play, in this game you need to get people to fear you, and you need them to not be calling your bets with nothing or betting vs you with nothing (and instead simply folding to you because they fear you), and checkraising him on this turn will help towards doing just that. On this board texture (coupled with the PF action) I really don't see him holding that many hands that will three bet you, so even if you're behind it's only costing you one more BB than check calling the turn and river, and if he folds to the turn checkraise this will go miles towards helping you learn that you can steal future pots off this guy -- pots that will be immensely more valuable than the .75BB-.8BB it costs you when you're behind on the turn and do checkraise.

Plus he will maybe even call you down with a worse hand simply out of curiosity (and knowing you're an online player and as such we have a rep for bluffing/spewing too much). Plus he might be winning and you river him anyway and it might momentarily tilt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

When i began to read this, i thought to myself, "that can't be right." When i finished reading it, i though "holy [censored] he is right". Nice post schneider.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

im either betting that turn or check raising it...

results
 

He said king-high, I sat there, unresponsive. He said king-high again and I did the "roll it over" motion and he disgustingly turned over King ten of hearts, I showed my hand and took the pot.

He was pissed and I got scolded pretty bad by a local who said around here when a guy says "i missed" or "king-high" you're supposed to just show your hand and drag the pot and it's very rude to do what I did.

I agree it's a little bit rude perhaps, but if he wants to see my hand it's only fair if he shows his. I don't mind him not showing, he can muck. I'll take the pot and muck my cards too.

With really bad players I'm a lot less abrasive...I don't want to make them feel dumb/bad and leave the game, but with another good player...I think making him show is hand is hands down the best/right play.

This is not the first time this has came up by far...and I'm curious how people like Tommy Angelo handle situations like this.

Re: results
 

"a local who said around here when a guy says "i missed" or "king-high" you're supposed to just show your hand"

lol "around here". that's pretty funny. like it's a friendly 10-20 game or something?

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
he disgustingly turned over King ten of hearts

[/ QUOTE ]
haha, this mustve been farha.

Re: results
 

Bike,

I don't play this high, but I was wondering what you think his logic might have been for the pre-flop cold call and flop call.

Re: 150/300 bellagio hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This whole folding for 1 more bet stuff in this type of hand is non-sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: results
 

Well I'm not Tommy Angelo but I'll give you my take, as this has happened to me a few times in the past (and coincidentally always against regular/decent players; it must be that bad players don't really mind showing).

For example, I check/call a Foxwoods regular down the whole way, and on the river he says "I think you got me" and waits for me to show. I wait just like you did. He then says "I only have sevens." I then announce my hand without showing it, i.e. "I have two pair." It's now up to him to believe me and muck (I won't show) or show his hand and then I'll show mine. In this one case, he showed, I showed, he got mad, I said "you play here 6 days a week you know the rules, I'm not trying to de a dick I just don't want to show my hand if I can't see yours" and everything was fine.

You're absolutely right, against a weak player I wouldn't do this but against a good player there is absolutely no reason to show your hand if he won't show his according to the rules of the showdown. Personally I don't care if it's some stupid "local custom among the regulars."

- Jags

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]


He was pissed and I got scolded pretty bad by a local who said around here when a guy says "i missed" or "king-high" you're supposed to just show your hand and drag the pot and it's very rude to do what I did.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is more rude to chime in when you are not involved in a pot. Also, you called his ass, so make him show. Isn't this basics poker?

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
but I was wondering what you think his logic might have been for the pre-flop cold call

[/ QUOTE ]
he is loose as fvck.
[ QUOTE ]
flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]
he was planning to bluff on the turn, make a K/BDflush and win, etc.

Re: results
 

"I'm curious how people like Tommy Angelo handle situations like this."

I do not sit silently and wait in these situations. I either show my hand immediately, or I say "How bad?" or "Me too."

If the pot is headsup and he bets the river and I call, or if we both check and he is first to show, and he says, "I missed," or he taps the table, or he indicates in any way that he either just got caught bluffing or that he surely expects to lose ...

1) If I have ace-high or better, I show my hand.

2) If I have king-high or worse ...

a) If he says "I missed," then I say either, "How bad?" or "Me too," and then I wait for him to show.
b) If he says, "King-high," when I have king-high, or he says "Queen-high" when I have queen-high, or he says "jack-high" when I have jack-high, etc, and I have the best possible kicker (meaning I have KQ or QJ or J10 etc), then I show my hand immediately. If I have a less-than-best kicker, then I say, "Me too," and I wait for him to show.

3) Anytime he verbally declares a hand that I can beat or tie, I show my hand.

The overriding ethic behind my behavior in these situations is that I never say or do anything that could be even remotely construed after the fact as jerking someone off.

There are some exceptional situations in which I might stray from the above guidelines, but not many, and not often.

I do not think my way is any better or worse than what you did.

Tommy

Re: results
 

FWIW, I do what Tommy does.

Doing what Bike did, while perfectly legit and technically correct, leads to a hostile playing environment. I prefer not to play in tension-filled poker games. Here, i would show my hand when he says "King high" and if he thinks he pulled a fast one on me by not having to show his hand even though I was the one who called his bet, well let him enjoy his moment.

Re: results
 

If the guy is not specific, I'll wait until he either shows or is specific. (e.g., if he says, "I missed," or "one pair," I'll wait if it's unclear who has won; if he says "one pair" and I have the best one pair, I'll show). If he's specific, such as what your guy did, "King high," I'll show my winning hand.

I make specific exceptions for guys who are fond of saying "I missed," meaning their flush and then, when you show your hand, show you a straight. But short of knowing my opponent is a jerk, I try not to be one.