QT...what a biotch
 

Villian is TAG 21/12/2.5 over 91 hands. Folds a lot post flop- which is why i wonder if i should have bet the river? im curious about all streets
pf- i am pretty sure i should have folded?
flop- raise?
turn- i opted to raise here. for/against?
river- decided to check behind since i didnt figure someone i was going to beat to call me

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (8.16 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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pf- i am pretty sure i should have folded?


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No way you can fold here. You're getting 5.5-1 effective and you will be in position throughout the hand. Sucks getting 3bet when you have Q10, but you need to take a flop now.

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flop- raise?


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Yes, I think I would have opted for a flop raise in this spot. My line would have been flop raise, bet turn, check river, but that is because I am weak.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

I fold this preflop. I only raise based on table composition and if it's suited.

Flop - raise
Turn - bet
River - ? Not so sure. I am leaning towards betting, as he could have JJ-88, Q9, maybe A7? But if he usually folds a lot post flop, I wouldn't be surprised if he shows a QJ or a split with QT.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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No way you can fold here. You're getting 5.5-1 effective and you will be in position throughout the hand.

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Can you elaborate on this? You're only in position if it's folded to the blinds. Any cold callers, which happens a lot in low limit 6 max, puts you out of position. QJ, KQ, KT, KJ are pretty popular cold call hands for the fishies or the passive types.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

fold preflop, QTo is no good UTG

I like raising the flop, because when a card like the K of clubs comes on the turn I won't want to raise anymore.

The river... well I'm all for value betting, but this one is close. I mean, I don't see a worse hand that's going to call the river. I think taking the free showdown here is a good idea.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

PF...i meant fold initially, not to the raise

Flop/turn: the plan was not for an overcard to come...but it was a scare if he has a queen, and the flushiness...and id have to call a river bet anyway i think.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

Fold preflop and raise the flop.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

crap I'm a jerk and didn't read carefully enough. Missed the BB 3-bet. That makes checking the river a lot more appealing.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

I raise this preflop just about every time.

I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

Given your line you need to value bet the river.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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I raise this preflop just about every time.

I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

Given your line you need to value bet the river.

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If you raise QTo, I'm assuming you raise KT and K9o, and A8o. What is your VPIP? 33? 30?

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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I raise this preflop just about every time.

I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

Given your line you need to value bet the river.

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If you raise QTo, I'm assuming you raise KT and K9o, and A8o. What is your VPIP? 33? 30?

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My vpip is 31 as of late.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

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Why do you think this?? IMO, waiting for the turn is a lot better.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

You just figure 91 hands of "folds a lot post flop" isn't enough of a read to make this a not easy value bet?

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

Thats a good question, I guess its just sort of my standard line right now in this situation so I'll try to come up with a few reasons.

1. There will be some turn cards, namely Aces and Kings, that I may decide to puss out and not raise.

2. I think you make more from hands like meduim pairs because they will always calldown after a flop raise and will often even put in 3bets while drawing very slim.

3.I don't feel that spectacular about my hand vs a 3bet out of the blind against my utg raise, and I would really hate getting 3bet on the turn.

4. I guess I'm just more of a flop pounder [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] And since I will often be raising the flop with a draw or overcards or whatever, then I also need to be raising it with some pretty strong made hands.

I'm glad you asked that question and I'd really like to hear some of your reasons for waiting till the turn, although I'm pretty sure I for the most part already know what they are.

I guess my biggest reason is probably number 3. If the turn bricks and I raise and get 3bet I really hate it. And if I raise the turn and he folds I feel like I probably didn't extract the max.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

Hey, thanks for addressing it. Here are a few of my thoughts.

My number one reason for waiting for the turn is (obviously) the extra small bet extracted when ahead and called down. The times I raise the flop are when against an extremely aggressive opponent who I would happily raise again on the turn if 3-bet (on the flop).

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1. There will be some turn cards, namely Aces and Kings, that I may decide to puss out and not raise.

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I see this as an advantage in waiting until the turn. We get to see if our hand holds strong before pumping it.

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2. I think you make more from hands like meduim pairs because they will always calldown after a flop raise and will often even put in 3bets while drawing very slim.

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This is somewhat game dependant I guess. The games I've been playing are very aggressive, and as a consequence middle pair is very rarely folding to a turn raise anyway, so it is a non-issue.

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3.I don't feel that spectacular about my hand vs a 3bet out of the blind against my utg raise, and I would really hate getting 3bet on the turn.

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This bit I don't like. It seems like you're sacrificing value to avoid a tough decision that in reality isn't that tough. A turn 3-bet should usually mean we fold before showdown.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

I raise the turn and spend my extra 3 bucks at Taco Bell.

This is my play almost all the time. Although I play 1/2 mostly, people will still pay me off to the river with middle/bottom pair.

It's wonderful.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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fold this preflop. I only raise based on table composition and if it's suited.



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yea i hate QTo in 1st seat ,i dump it too,
Actually im not so sute what to do with JTo or JQo
i dump JTo and raise JQo,is that ok?

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

turn=icky

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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like raising the flop, because when a card like the K of clubs comes on the turn I won't want to raise anymore.


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yep when you have TP on a kind of co-ordinated board with low cards my standar now is to raise instead of waiting for the turn to raise,

Because if an over card does fall or the 3rd flush or str8 card falls the flop bettor may just check to you and youve missed an extra 1/2 BB,
if those cards fall and he still bets into you and you raise,he calls, are you still sure you have the best hand?

also when in 1st position on those type flops ive given waiting for the tunr to CR for the reasons above,mainly for fear of him checking thru the turn

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

here's a question...

you were three bet from BB and flop top pair with QT. Is there a chance you won't take it to showdown? I mean, if I raise the flop and get 3 bet is there ever a time to call and c/f the turn? would calling the flop, and then folding the turn (to the flush coming in and the overcard) be ok? If i call the turn then I have to call the river, IMO.

Back to the hand. If I get 3bet on the turn I think I can lay it down (i hope I can...I should be able to). In this case I got a free showdown out of the deal, which is nice, since I wanted to show it down. At the same time, if I'm ahead when I raise I'd still be ahead on the river so probably wouldn't want to take the free card, correct?

If my read was over a larger selection of hands I think betting the river would have been a better play- part fold equity and part value bet- what does it mean when a TAG calls your turn raise and checks to you on the river- has he pussed out?

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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This bit I don't like. It seems like you're sacrificing value to avoid a tough decision that in reality isn't that tough. A turn 3-bet should usually mean we fold before showdown.

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You're right. I guess I just hate not seeing a showdown here and am not good enough to be able to laydown to the turn 3bet or to a river bet. I usually end up thinking "well now I have odds to hit my 5 outer" so I call the 3bet and then miss and I'm like "well now its just one bet to see showdown" so I pay off like a fish. This is def. a leak in my game.

What do you think about my comment regarding how I generally play draws and hands other than top pair on the flop. Do you think opponents are probably not paying enough attention for that to matter much?

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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I raise this preflop just about every time.

I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

Given your line you need to value bet the river.

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If you raise QTo, I'm assuming you raise KT and K9o, and A8o. What is your VPIP? 33? 30?

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My vpip is 31 as of late.

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Interesting...my vpip has been hovering around 27 and my PFR around 18 but I only open with QTo in CO or later.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

I'm taking the WA/WB line here. Calling any bet, betting if checked to.

Preflop is marginal but fine, IMO.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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here's a question...

you were three bet from BB and flop top pair with QT. Is there a chance you won't take it to showdown? I mean, if I raise the flop and get 3 bet is there ever a time to call and c/f the turn? would calling the flop, and then folding the turn (to the flush coming in and the overcard) be ok? If i call the turn then I have to call the river, IMO.

Back to the hand. If I get 3bet on the turn I think I can lay it down (i hope I can...I should be able to). In this case I got a free showdown out of the deal, which is nice, since I wanted to show it down. At the same time, if I'm ahead when I raise I'd still be ahead on the river so probably wouldn't want to take the free card, correct?



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I we raise the flop and he 3 bets there is almost no chance I'm not going to showdown. If we raise the turn and he 3bets, we really shouldnt be going to showdown but like I said in my above post, that can be a tough fold to make.



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If my read was over a larger selection of hands I think betting the river would have been a better play- part fold equity and part value bet- what does it mean when a TAG calls your turn raise and checks to you on the river- has he pussed out?

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If you bet the river it is strictly for value. I don't think there is any chance AQ is folding.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

Minus the preflop raise, I like the way you played this. A top pair Q hand is my borderline hand for using the check/call line, but when the 3rd club hits the turn, I think it protects you from a 3-bet against a lot of hands beating you. Likewise you can charge his single club an extra BB when he continues the semi-bluff. The river check through also looks good since you're only getting value from a hand like TT/JJ, all other hands you beat will fold and hands that beat you will call.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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What do you think about my comment regarding how I generally play draws and hands other than top pair on the flop. Do you think opponents are probably not paying enough attention for that to matter much?

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I usually raise draws and great hands (and sometimes small pairs if I feel that a flop 3-bet will reliably show I'm behind) on this flop to satisfy shania, although I don't think people are paying that much attention, no.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

Hmmm...let's see...fold pre-flop. Raise the flop, your hand is not strong enough to wait for the turn and you might get a free card if the turn is bad (say, like a K for example.) Turn raise is horrible, as you fold out the only hands you're ahead of (JJ, TT), while losing extra to K's or better Q's (without an exceptional read I don't expect anybody to fold.) Betting the river would be horrible.

FOLD PREFLOP.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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Hmmm...let's see...fold pre-flop. Raise the flop, your hand is not strong enough to wait for the turn and you might get a free card if the turn is bad (say, like a K for example.) Turn raise is horrible, as you fold out the only hands you're ahead of (JJ, TT), while losing extra to K's or better Q's (without an exceptional read I don't expect anybody to fold.) Betting the river would be horrible.

FOLD PREFLOP.

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if i raise the flop i am going to get 3 bet a lot of the time by a lot of hands IMO.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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Hmmm...let's see...fold pre-flop. Raise the flop, your hand is not strong enough to wait for the turn and you might get a free card if the turn is bad (say, like a K for example.) Turn raise is horrible, as you fold out the only hands you're ahead of (JJ, TT), while losing extra to K's or better Q's (without an exceptional read I don't expect anybody to fold.) Betting the river would be horrible.

FOLD PREFLOP.

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if i raise the flop i am going to get 3 bet a lot of the time by a lot of hands IMO.

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If you're so worried about the strength of your hand when you have top pair on the flop, what could possibly inspire you to raise the turn?? The only hands you fold out are 99-JJ no club (2 outs), and possibly AQs. Everything else he can have beats you, and none of these hands fold.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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Preflop is marginal but fine if you're El Diablo, IMO.

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FYP.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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Hmmm...let's see...fold pre-flop. Raise the flop, your hand is not strong enough to wait for the turn and you might get a free card if the turn is bad (say, like a K for example.) Turn raise is horrible, as you fold out the only hands you're ahead of (JJ, TT), while losing extra to K's or better Q's (without an exceptional read I don't expect anybody to fold.) Betting the river would be horrible.

FOLD PREFLOP.

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if i raise the flop i am going to get 3 bet a lot of the time by a lot of hands IMO.

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If you're so worried about the strength of your hand when you have top pair on the flop, what could possibly inspire you to raise the turn?? The only hands you fold out are 99-JJ no club (2 outs), and possibly AQs. Everything else he can have beats you, and none of these hands fold.

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What I'm saying is if he has just overcards he's more likely to fold the turn to a raise than the flop (was hoping it wasn't going to be an overcard). Since it was, and he bet the flop, I figured my line of calling the flop and raising the turn would indicate the K or the flush. This guy folds a lot post flop, i mentioned that in my original post, and I'm a fairly straight forward player at 3/6 since im new to it so he should perceive my raise as a K or flush- and he's capable of laying down a Q on this board. I can't fold (or can i?) so i'd have to call the river anyway, most likely, and i have him as TAGish (also mentioned above) so I'm expecting a river bet. I can fold to a turn 3bet easily.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

prediction before I've finished reading the post, or read any of the thread: there will be a hoard of people bitching about the preflop raise without mentioning anything about postflop play

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

fwiw he's getting 5.5-1 immediate, not effective

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

I'm calling the turn, because the only hands that are folding are the ones that are drawing slim, and they will probably paying off a river bet, and you might get 3-bet while holding outs. or possibly a free showdown by a better hand on a scary river card

also, for me, folding QT utg is the exception rather than the rule but if the table's especially loose and/or aggressive, I'm folding it

and I call the flop planning to call down

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

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I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

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Why do you think this?? IMO, waiting for the turn is a lot better.

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I don't like raising the turn at all, even if it's a blank. if you get 3-bet you fold outs, you might get a hand like AJ to fold right there, which you don't want since he'll otherwise check-call the turn, pretty often you put in 3 bets with the worst hand which negates much of the benefit of getting 3 bets from hands like JJ, and you open yourself up to a bluff. if you're going to call a 3-bet then I think it's even worse

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

My post was based on the fact that the OP raised and is now facing a 3bet. I now realize that he meant folding pf without the raise. FWIW I raise utg with QTo.

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

Why is there this paranoia among good players of being 3-bet on the turn? If we peel and fold the river unimproved we've spent 3.5BB postflop, the same as getting 3-bet on the flop and calling down. If the player is such that we can't safely fold before showdown facing a turn 3-bet, then I agree that raising the flop is probably right, but these players are uncommon. Otherwise, it seems that raising the flop is sacrificing value to avoid this "tough" decision.

This is a good point that is applicable to some games:

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if you get 3-bet you fold outs, you might get a hand like AJ to fold right there, which you don't want since he'll otherwise check-call the turn

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Re: QT...what a biotch
 

that should read "check-call the river" at the end

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

I think, especially against a TAG who folds a lot postflop, the turn raise hurts you. No one believes a flop raise, but if you raise the turn he likely folds the smaller pps and other worse hands, or of course 3-bets or calls with better ones.

If hero did win the hand, I'd imagine it's because the guy called the turn raise with a club

Re: QT...what a biotch
 

do you mean raising the flop?