KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

6max party 100
Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($94.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($95.15)</font>
BB ($113.10)
UTG ($46.60)
<font color="#C00000">MP ($120.60)</font>
<font color="#C00000">CO ($268.73)</font>

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $4.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $4, MP calls $4.

Flop: ($21) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $10, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $30</font>, Hero calls $20, MP calls $20.

Turn: ($111) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP calls $85.60 (All-In), CO calls $85.60, Hero calls $60.15 (All-In).

Final Pot: $342.35

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

Reraise PF, CO has a worse hand than you- he'll most likely call. I don't particularly like KK 4 handed.

3 bet all in on the flop. You're ahead of his JT

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

i dont care about pf or flop, those are uninteresting.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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i dont care about pf or flop, those are uninteresting.

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You should care, that's where you made the mistakes that got you into a very tough decision.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

If you re-raise pre flop that pretty much eliminates someone having A4 suited or something like that and makes this hand a lot easier to play on the other streets.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

If CO is so bad why not reraise preflop and isolate him preflop.. Going 4 handed with KK is always a mistake if you haven't raise preflop. I wouldn't be surprised if MP has 22.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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i dont care about pf or flop, those are uninteresting.

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You should care, that's where you made the mistakes that got you into a very tough decision.

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i found the decision pretty avg and was made pretty quickly.

this is why this forum sucks, anything remotely unorthodox preflop becomes the focus of any hand discussion.

"omg, i gave up some equity pf because i know it would kill/severely limit my action against the moron postflop" oh well.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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If CO is so bad why not reraise preflop and isolate him preflop.. Going 4 handed with KK is always a mistake if you haven't raise preflop. I wouldn't be surprised if MP has 22.

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yeah, it sure would make a lot of sense to open push with the best hand when a [censored] player has raised the flop and will bet again on the turn and potentially trap the SB (me) so i can get both their stacks.

i mean, seriously.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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If you re-raise pre flop that pretty much eliminates someone having A4 suited or something like that and makes this hand a lot easier to play on the other streets.

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i want the bad players stack, i don't mind tough situations if i think it will increase my chances of doing so.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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i want the bad players stack, i don't mind tough situations if i think it will increase my chances of doing so.

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You may be increasing the size of the pot you could win, but you're seriously decreasing your chances of winning it by playing it this way.

I understand you'd like to win a huge pot with your kings, but when playing them this way you're going to lose your stack more times than you'll triple up.

The people here are simply trying to show you that by playing the hand this way you're giving up lots of EV to build the pot.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

If you are happy with your pre-flop and flop play (which is questionable at best) then I think you played the rest of the hand fine. You are definitely way behind and probably drawing to 2 outs but you are getting almost 5-1 to call the turn.

Others have mentioned pre-flop so I will focus on the flop. With a bet and a raise you know that your stack is going in if you call here (and you are most likely way behind). You either need to push or fold because you aren't folding on the turn.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

do you play in these games? i was against jt and kt.

who cares, let this thread die, it is retarded.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

You created this mess when you failed to reraise before the flop. The fact that CO is 90/44 make not reraising to ~$25 a BIG mistake IMO.

I would fold on the turn. One of those guys has a full house.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

PF is where the problem lies. The rest is just a turkey shoot.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

i had no problem with the hand, i just found it interesting because it was played (:::gasp:::) a little differently.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

LOL, Oh wait you're right, you played that hand perfectly. What masterful insight you have. Is that what you wanted to hear?

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

But you had an EASY situation before the flop and you blew it.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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i had no problem with the hand, i just found it interesting because it was played (:::gasp:::) a little differently.

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Why the pissy mood? Nothing in this hand is interesting. If you're going to play KK this way on the early streets, the turn is an instacall. Your hand basically plays like bottom set here. If you'd call with bottom set (and I'm about 100% certain you would), you call with KK.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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do you play in these games? i was against jt and kt.

who cares, let this thread die, it is retarded.

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I've only got about 100K hands at NL$100 and NL$200 so maybe I need a little practice. You gambled and won. Good for you. Please consider that every player at NL$100 might not be a complete retard.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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If you're going to play KK this way on the early streets, the turn is an instacall.

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I never though about it that way.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

practicing hand reading might be a good idea. you think someone with either 2 pair or a set smoothcalled this flop after a bet (possible) and then smoothcalled again after it had been raised by a maniac and called (not that likely). AND THEN after all that trickiness he open pushed the turn facing a nearly guaranteed bet w/ the great possibility of trapping the SB AFTER he filled up and is no longer worried about draws (completely absurd).

but you have 100k hands, sorry. ill just keep gambling.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

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If both players are that bad, you made a pretty big mistake by not reraising preflop.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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Why the pissy mood? Nothing in this hand is interesting. If you're going to play KK this way on the early streets, the turn is an instacall. Your hand basically plays like bottom set here. If you'd call with bottom set (and I'm about 100% certain you would), you call with KK.

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how can this hand be completely uninteresting yet every response in the thread disagrees with every decision? somewhat contradictory, no?

pissy? i dunno. i just get annoyed in this forum because i only post hands that i play differently (maybe thats the problem since they are often based on table context) and every response is "OMG you need to do X" w/ X=standard play.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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practicing hand reading might be a good idea. you think someone with either 2 pair or a set smoothcalled this flop after a bet (possible) and then smoothcalled again after it had been raised by a maniac and called (not that likely). AND THEN after all that trickiness he open pushed the turn facing a nearly guaranteed bet w/ the great possibility of trapping the SB AFTER he filled up and is no longer worried about draws (completely absurd).

but you have 100k hands, sorry. ill just keep gambling.

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CO was the pre-flop raiser, raised the flop then called a turn push from an idiot. How is it impossible to think he doesn't have KK beat most of the time????

Again, congratulations on the hand. Folding would have been a huge mistake. If you ask for comments and someone provides you with constructive criticism either say thanks or make a logical counter argument. Insults are childish.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

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If both players are that bad, you made a pretty big mistake by not reraising preflop.

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maybe its just me, but i win next to zero big pots after putting in a 2nd raise pf (unless it happens to be AA v KK and we know a 40pfr's range is way bigger than simply big pps). even maniacs know that a reraise = a big hand in this game. the majority of the time i reraise in this situation i lead the flop and its folded. is the deception worth the risk? i dont mind it and am perfectly comfortable with it.

once again, maybe its just me.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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i just get annoyed in this forum because i only post hands that i play differently (maybe thats the problem since they are often based on table context) and every response is "OMG you need to do X" w/ X=standard play.

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Without specific reads or giving us your plan of attack how do expect to get anything other than ABC advice? Limping AA or KK is fine if you have a reason and a plan. Your OP stated nothing specific so everyone assumed (wrongly) that you had no plan.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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Why the pissy mood? Nothing in this hand is interesting. If you're going to play KK this way on the early streets, the turn is an instacall. Your hand basically plays like bottom set here. If you'd call with bottom set (and I'm about 100% certain you would), you call with KK.

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how can this hand be completely uninteresting yet every response in the thread disagrees with every decision? somewhat contradictory, no?

pissy? i dunno. i just get annoyed in this forum because i only post hands that i play differently (maybe thats the problem since they are often based on table context) and every response is "OMG you need to do X" w/ X=standard play.

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You tell me what's interesting about it then. You're irritated that people are focused on the preflop and flop play. That's the part that's nonstandard (which some might equate with interest?). On a T424 board where I haven't let anybody know I have a hand as strong as KK and I'm against horrible players, I'm more than happy to get both all in against both of them expecting an overpair from one and TPGK from the other. Yes, you'll run into AA and/or a set sometimes but big deal; most of the time you don't.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

So did you post this hand becasue you wanted advice or feedback? If you're unwilling to acccept the possibility that "unorthodox" does not necesarrily mean "advanced but correct" and that you misplayed this hand, then why ask for feedback that you won't accept?

If you didn't post this becasue you wanted advice, then why didn't you put "no content" in the title?

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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CO was the pre-flop raiser, raised the flop then called a turn push from an idiot. How is it impossible to think he doesn't have KK beat most of the time????

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are you freaking serious? he raises 44% of the time. that is half of his hands. i am worried about being behind a tiny fraction of hands. he raised the flop after a weak lead/stab, his range is still gigantic (not to mention the fact that when the board pairs and i am now ahead of the times he flopped a random 2pr). there is a WAY higher percentage of hands that i am ahead of than behind.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

it was posted because i was chatting with someone and they said they would never make the turn call and i thought it was kind of automatic.

also, i shouldn't have said that i find the flop play completely uninteresting, that was a mistake. i think CRing rather than leading is pretty viable as is pushing after the maniac raises (although i dont think i get paid as often w/ either of those)

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

Based on the reasoning and method you played preflop &amp; flop, I agree the turn call is automatic. You were trying to induce action. You got that action. Why wouldn't you call?

It would probably be +EV for you to not be so incindiary when you post here, however. People are just trying to help your game.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

I don't understand preflop or flop. Turn I also don't get. I like the river, though, assuming you didn't somehow manage to fold once all in.

Edit: Just to clarify - I am tickled pink to get all-in on the turn against both guys here on this board. They will both have a ten or worse a large percentage of the time. But I don't think your line is the best way to do that. And you give up a lot when they completely miss the flop by not re-raising preflop.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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do you play in these games? i was against jt and kt.

who cares, let this thread die, it is retarded.

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Just for future reference, if you want to let us in on why you made the unorthodox play (such as more comprehensive reads on the players and the table in general) then you probably wouldn't get so much attention on the PF play.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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"omg, i gave up some equity pf because i know it would kill/severely limit my action against the moron postflop" oh well.

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you wanted action, you got action, you have to call...i think you're beat here a lot though.

EDIT: lol, i just saw that grunch wrote pretty much the same thing.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

I believe that I would have been reraising into this type of player with a lot of hands other than AA or KK. Your unorthodox play wasn't to get the maniac but to get the other player who was also out to stack him. No way most players go all in with TPGK at that level. If so then I really need to start playing 6 max.

My thoughts would be that you could have reraised pre flop without AA or KK against this player... also pushing flop is the only thing you should do since a flush draw is out there and a large enough % of your stack is already being committed with a call to justify a push. If they are both bad then they should attempt to draw but they are at least paying the price.

Glad it worked out this time... when I get home I should post a hand of mine from last night KK vs. 104s... KK hits set and trys to slowplay... I bet like a madman with my draw and hit on river and double up.

Guin

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

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I really need to start playing 6 max.


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Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

you dont? why not?

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

Because the way you played it preflop I would just lead out for the pot on the flop and then push the turn. These guys love to call, but can't be relied upon to raise and your line will not get the money in fast enough to prevent scare cards from killing your hand/action. And I would re-raise preflop because more often than not they will both miss the flop completely instead of both hitting top pair.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

TWP-- just to clarify, are you saying you would never use OP's line or that its not optimal? I don't think its optimal but I don't think its bad as a once-in-a-while play.

Re: KK unimproved, facing a push and a call
 

Once in a while plays at NL100 are like saying "I usually prefer $20 to $10 but once in a while I like to take the $10. Just to mix it up." I never take that line in that game.