AA...do I get greedy?
 

The MP3 is pretty loose and playing short. At the time of the re-raise all-in, I have the option to re-raise. However MP3 is short-stacked, and he will call the "smaller" re-raise with any hand. I'm pretty certain a push will cause him to fold. For simplicity, I put him on a pocket pair. I can either push now and get him out of the way, or I can call and let MP3 commit about 1/3 his stack as a vast dog. If I let MP3 in, I plan on pushing any flop.

What's your plan? Push or call.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) converter

SB ($1321.20)
BB ($377.10)
UTG ($390.90)
UTG+1 ($160)
Garland ($402)
MP2 ($337.70)
MP3 ($255)
CO ($352.60)
Button ($88)

Preflop: Garland is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>, UTG+1 calls $8, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $32</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $32, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises $88 (all-in)</font>, 4 folds, Garland ???

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

I think i speak for everybody when i say that this is a pretty obvious fold.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

On party I hit the minraise button here.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

I would call and bet half of MP3's stack on flop and the other half on river if the flop isn't too scary. If it is, push flop.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

Easy push

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would call and bet half of MP3's stack on flop and the other half on river if the flop isn't too scary. If it is, push flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do the calculations, there will be $286 in the pot on the flop should I elect to smooth-call and MP3 also calls, and MP3 will have $167 left. Betting half of his stack kind of seems silly, right? Anything he likes on the flop, he should probably be going with all the way...

Garland

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

If you give bad players a chance to do the min raise bluff push...they will take it.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

i vote call, push any flop.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

Is there any other hand you would consider just calling with pf in this spot?

-SmileyEH

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any other hand you would consider just calling with pf in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

the answer to this question means nothing unless you think his opponent is capable of a third level of thought...which i doubt he is.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there any other hand you would consider just calling with pf in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

the answer to this question means nothing unless you think his opponent is capable of a third level of thought...which i doubt he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about 3rd level...The guy's thinking, "wow this tight player just raised preflop then only called off like a quarter of his stack. looks like he's trying to trap with a monster to me." if garland pushes he could likely to think, "oh this bastard has AK and wants me to fold my pocket two's, good thing they are a favorite over AK, I call."
Not that this amount of reasoning is certain for the other player...but it's definitely possible and worth considering.

-SmileyEH

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

smiley,
if i see a 3rd raise from a tight player over an all=in, i am most DEFINATELY not putting him on AK.neither are most players here...let them see a flop and then hang themselves when they catch a piece or decide that their overpair is just too good to fold. They're much more likely to make this mistake then they are to put us on AK.
regards,
crosse

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

If you push you win.....$142 (not counting what you put in the pot)

Let's say villian folds the flop unless he hits his set....

approx 88% of the time you win $198
approx 10% of the time you lose $255
approx 2% of the time you win $365
---------------------------------------
avg. win = $156 (not counting what you put in the pot)

Plus sometimes villian might call you're allin when you're ahead. If my math is right you have an easy call.

&lt;Edit&gt; okay....i just realized that i'm making entirely too many assumptions and that i totally forgot about the other guy (the guy that's already allin) and his impact on the hand (he might actually win)....That said, i still think you should call and not raise

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

Seems like an easy call. The pot will be bigger than stacks on the flop.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

i dont like the flat call.. if he has something like QQ or KK, hes coming with a raggy flop anyways.. and the short stack could have something like AK and decided to put all the money in the middle hopeing to spike a good flop.

i think the flat call might look a little sketchy to the guy behind you.. not only that you give him a chance to take the lead in the hand and then you're incorrect to fold. if he has KK, spikes a K, and now you're sitting on a flop with a lot of money in it and hes got you beat you have to call.. get it in there now.. if he comes with you.. hes got KK and maybe QQ.. and you're a huge favorite to win.

you're right about the getting greedy thing.. if you push and he sucks out on you.. oh well thats poker, if you call and he calls and spikes a set you'll be kicking your self in the face.. all because of a few hundred extra.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like the flat call.. if he has something like QQ or KK, hes coming with a raggy flop anyways.. and the short stack could have something like AK and decided to put all the money in the middle hopeing to spike a good flop.

i think the flat call might look a little sketchy to the guy behind you.. not only that you give him a chance to take the lead in the hand and then you're incorrect to fold. if he has KK, spikes a K, and now you're sitting on a flop with a lot of money in it and hes got you beat you have to call.. get it in there now.. if he comes with you.. hes got KK and maybe QQ.. and you're a huge favorite to win.

you're right about the getting greedy thing.. if you push and he sucks out on you.. oh well thats poker, if you call and he calls and spikes a set you'll be kicking your self in the face.. all because of a few hundred extra.

[/ QUOTE ]

come on man...think about this a little harder

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he has something like QQ or KK, hes coming with a raggy flop anyways..

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has something like QQ or KK and happens to be slow-playing by cold-calling the $32, he's going to push behind me if I flat call.

Garland

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

think about what? he has the best hand and hes trying to extract the max value.

i know those guys are drawing to few outs to bust his hand.. but say the flop comes 3 flush.. or a Q or a K comes.. that has to be setting off alarms in your head.. now you're sitting on a huge pot with one guy all in.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

im not so sure he would do that. because there is already one guy all in.. so he has to beat him. he might take a flop and then pull the trigger then.. if he does you're making yourself think wayy too hard in this situation and giving him too many chances to beat you.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

pot is 264, opponent would have 167 left and put in 1/3 of his stack pf, i have AA...there is no flop that would cause alarms to go off in my head.

the key here is extracting max value from hands like JJ, QQ, AK, AQ, KK, etc...if you are pushing b/c you are worried about losing to a 2 outter for a "big pot" then you aren't playing good poker and "extracing max value".

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

i agree.

i just think you're taking a lot of risk because you also have to beat the guy whos all in.. and isolating him gives you a better win ratio.. even when leading before the flop.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

isolating the all in guy doesn't make you beat him more often...if anything your last post makes me really want to play a sidepot

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
On party I hit the minraise button here.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a minraise button on Ultimate Bet too...

Garland

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

I call the re-raise. Also, if MP3 comes along, I'm playing to the end no matter what, so I may go for c/r on flop, and then push turn if he checks also. I'm not really worried about giving free cards. Curious if everyone else only likes the push on flop?

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there any other hand you would consider just calling with pf in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

the answer to this question means nothing unless you think his opponent is capable of a third level of thought...which i doubt he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about 3rd level...The guy's thinking, "wow this tight player just raised preflop then only called off like a quarter of his stack. looks like he's trying to trap with a monster to me." if garland pushes he could likely to think, "oh this bastard has AK and wants me to fold my pocket two's, good thing they are a favorite over AK, I call."
Not that this amount of reasoning is certain for the other player...but it's definitely possible and worth considering.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, perhaps I'm way off, but the re-raise smooth call looks worse to me then a push here (if I were villian). BUT the ultimate trick is to try and get a read on how deep you think your opponent thinks about the game. How standard is this thought at this level. It doesn't appear like something too advanced. Perhaps I give more credits to my opponents then I should though.

I would push here. If you're read on MP3 is correct though, then I'd call. I think it's pretty read dependent between call/push.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

I call here. I feel protected enough and will try to trap MP3.

That being said, if I had KK I'd be all-in.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like an easy call. The pot will be bigger than stacks on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

Think for 10.. then call.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

Wow, why the hell would you push? Let him put 1/3 of his stack in wth 23% at best (67 suited)?

PLZ just call and push and flop. Pushing preflop is really really bad.

Re: AA...do I get greedy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, why the hell would you push? Let him put 1/3 of his stack in wth 23% at best (67 suited)?

PLZ just call and push and flop. Pushing preflop is really really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much what i think of the hand too.

Easy call / push flop IMO.

You have to let him commit the most money against your nuts PF. It's a lot better than protecting your hand. AA is a STRONG favorite 3 handed all in PF vs any type of hands they might have.

Results and thoughts...
 

Like many others have deduced, I also thought it was a pretty easy math problem. The additional $55 I extract from MP3 is worth the risk losing the pot. In addition, should he have the pair I put him on and the flop comes xxx...all unders to his pair, he would also likely pay me off.

Alas, as is evidenced in my recent posts, I cannot win with AA:

Thanks for all your thoughts.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($1321.20)
BB ($377.10)
UTG ($390.90)
UTG+1 ($160)
<font color="#C00000">Garland ($402)</font>
MP2 ($337.70)
<font color="#C00000">MP3 ($255)</font>
CO ($352.60)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($88)</font>

Preflop: Garland is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>, UTG+1 calls $8, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $32</font>, 1 fold,<font color="#CC3333"> Button raises $88 (all-in)</font>, 4 folds, Garland calls $55, MP3 calls $55.

Flop: ($286) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Garland bets $314 (All-In)</font>, MP3 calls $167 (All-In).

Turn: ($620) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($620) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $620

Results below:
Garland has Ad As (two pair, aces and sixes).
MP3 has 8h 8c (full house, eights full of sixes).
Button has Qs Qd (two pair, queens and sixes).
Outcome: MP3 wins $620.

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

he probably pays you off w/even only one overcard, especially if its a T, J, or Q

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

[ QUOTE ]
he probably pays you off w/even only one overcard, especially if its a T, J, or Q

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree here. Remember, it's a protected pot.

Garland

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

i know it's tough not to be results-oriented but you made the correct play here you want to do whatever you can based on your reads to get as much money in pf as possible and a push lets him get away from his 77/88/99/TT/whatever.