a 99 hand
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4 BB

Re: a 99 hand
 

A concept that I often use, which I borrowed from playing sng's, is no set/overpair = no bet. Although you give up a tiny bit from time to time, I think that this is a fine situation to apply it. Good fold!

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

www.paid-to-play.com

Re: a 99 hand
 

It's probably a little loose to raise 99 there (but certainly not horrific)... I agree with the fold.

Re: a 99 hand
 

if that hand is indicative of the table he's playing, (tight-tight/weak) I would think not raising 99 there would be horrific. I am not certain at all though, so would really like a response from one of the big boys.

Re: a 99 hand
 

Raising preflop is absolutely fine here.

Re: a 99 hand
 

I agree that a raise is called for if the table is especially tight... but then he should probably be trying to find a new table. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: a 99 hand
 

Like I said I don't think its a horrific play by any means, but it is also not the standard play suggested by SSH.

Re: a 99 hand
 

SSH is not a rule book, it is a guidline. What does it reccomend raising? TT? I am sure there are plenty of people on this board that could get away with raising significantly more than SSH reccomends because they play better postflop than the audience it was intended for.

Re: a 99 hand
 

I don't disagree with you at all. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be pointed out that the play in the hand in question may not be the best play.

Re: a 99 hand
 

I think it is clearly the best play.

1. You become the aggressor in the hand
2. You may get it HU
3. You most likely have the best hand so far
4. Hands that would be correct to call if they could see your cards are now more likely to fold (JT, KT, etc)

Re: a 99 hand
 

How is it loose to raise 99 here?

Re: a 99 hand
 

I hate to go back to the book argument but if it's 'clearly' right to raise then why does Miller not suggest doing so? It's certainly possible that he is wrong but I'll atleast give him the benefit of the doubt from now.... even though I think in general it is going to be very close to the same EV if you raise or call with 99 in EP in a tight game so it's not that big of a deal either way.

Re: a 99 hand
 

Your "book argument" isn't an argument. You're just stating what's on the preflop chart of SSH. Miller isn't wrong and neither is Evan. Miller just presents an overall guideline that shouldn't be interepreted as dogma, but rather a blue print to get you started. As game conditions and player skills vary widely, so does the optimal play.

Stick around here, post hands, and read why people suggest they play the way they do, I promise you'll be glad you did.

Re: a 99 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to go back to the book argument but if it's 'clearly' right to raise then why does Miller not suggest doing so?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know. I don't even have the book in front of me. I think that it says to raise TT there. If that's the case you cannot convince me that a good postlfop player that is making more by raising TT will not also make more by raising 99. (Please don't waste time by completing this all the way down to 22)

[ QUOTE ]
I think in general it is going to be very close to the same EV if you raise or call with 99 in EP in a tight game

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you think that? It sounds pretty random to me.

Re: a 99 hand
 

It's impossible to tell for this situation, but on many "tight" tables the SSHE chart does not apply. It's common for juicy loose tables in 2/4 to degenerate into aggressive blind wars where 3 players MAX see the flop and almost every pot is raised (a far cry from the passive 3-5 in Miller's charts). If this one hand (like I said clearly not enough to base my claim on) indicates such a table, I think a raise is a must here.

Re: a 99 hand
 

This doesn't sound like any 2/4 game I've ever played on Party.

Re: a 99 hand
 

This table was not tight. Just because a bunch of people folded for *two cold* preflop doesn't make a table tight. Flops were regularly 5-6 handed for one bet and 3-4 for 2 bets.

In other news, I actually posted this hand looking for feedback on the postflop play. Standard? Too weak?

Re: a 99 hand
 

Postlfop is fine.

Re: a 99 hand
 

really? you must get up earlier from a souring table then me. It seems like the natural progression of good tables to slowly get tighter until they're wrinkly old stinkers. Anyone else find this to be true, or am I crazy/otherwise deficient?

Re: a 99 hand
 

1. Every 2/4 table I've ever seen has been very loose passive.
2. Yea, I do try to leave games when they are not great. As you move up in limits this becomes increasingly important.

Re: a 99 hand
 

I don't know. I don't even have the book in front of me. I think that it says to raise TT there. If that's the case you cannot convince me that a good postlfop player that is making more by raising TT will not also make more by raising 99. (Please don't waste time by completing this all the way down to 22)

TT/99 is the cutoff line... I won't slippery slope this thing but the line does have to be made somewhere.

[ QUOTE ]
I think in general it is going to be very close to the same EV if you raise or call with 99 in EP in a tight game

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you think that? It sounds pretty random to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that it's apparently debateable means the difference in the two plays is probably similiar... much much much more money is won/lost based upon post flop play.

Re: a 99 hand
 

I play it exactly the same. Raising preflop is fine; calling would also have been fine.