10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

10/20 NL. Short stack has $450, the effective stack for main villain and me is $2300.

Short stack opens for $50, I call with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], passive calling station surprisingly pops it to $140, short stack calls, I call.

Flop:

7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Short stack acts first and bets $150, leaving him with $150 behind (?!?!?!) I am next. I...?

I am putting main villain 95% on AA-KK here. What's the best betting sequence to stack him off? We each have $2150 more.

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

I think raising to 500 here is best and here is why: If you're pretty sure villain has aa or kk, then he will reraise you no matter what you do because he doesn't want any draws to hit. If you were to just call 150 and the villain bumps it up, correct play would be to push, but there is a problem with that. It looks mighty suspicious to call 150 and then reraise and the villain could put you on your set or even just 2 pair and let his big pair go.

But if you raise, he will still reraise you to see where you are at. It's better to make it 500 because then his reraise will be close to committing him. (If he min raises, it'll leave him with 1300). Now it gets a little tricky. If you think that he will call an all in if you hesitate and then push, go for it. If not, you just have to call and pray that a scare card doesn't come off.

And there are a lot of them. If you call his flop rereraise he now has you on a10, jacks, queens, possibly 2 hearts, or a hand like 10,8 hearts. There are a lot of cards that could come off on the turn or river that could kill your action. If any heart, 6,8,10,j, or queen comes off he will be scared you made your straight/flush/set. That's 25 cards. If he has kings, then add a few aces to the list of scare cards. Use good judgment and if you think you can get him to call your push on the flop go for it.

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

really depends on how aggressive villain thinks you are.

fim

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

are you sure you cant make more on average by not going for the stack off here?

seems counterintuitive i know but a good opponent with AA/KK is getting away here alot if youre tight

maybe just calling is best, then he HAS to raise for sure, the draws...

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

if you are that sure he has aces or kings, then a call is best.

there is no way he cant raise in that spot with that action.

it looks like you have a draw or weak made hand and are getting in cheap.

i would flat call his raise, then get the rest in on the turn, unless your image is a bit over agg and crazy, then maybe you could try the flat call/3 bet flop line, but i dont love that.

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

Call..are you really considering anything else? He will definitely raise. The real question should be after you call and he raises, then what do you do? Do you just call or do you just move in?

Edit: So many turn cards kill your action, FSU are you sure you just smooth call and then get it in on the turn? How many times do we see the smooth call by someone, a raise, and then they move in on the flop and it's just a flush draw...

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

id slowplay this hand as much as humanly possible, considering the curcumstances... this board is extremely draw heavy and this guy almost certainly has AA/KK so check/call flop and turn and pay for blanks... value bet river.
if you staert giving him alot action in a dry sidepot, he is prob gonna muck really fast.

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call..are you really considering anything else? He will definitely raise. The real question should be after you calla nd he raises, then what do you do? Do you just call or do you just move in?

[/ QUOTE ]id just call.

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

[ QUOTE ]
So many turn cards kill your action, FSU are you sure you just smooth call and then get it in on the turn? How many times do we see the smooth call by someone, a raise, and then they move in on the flop and it's just a flush draw...

[/ QUOTE ]

the dry side pot is a big factor here however. makes a flush draw that much less likely if theres a 3 bet.

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

[ QUOTE ]
id slowplay this hand as much as humanly possible, considering the curcumstances... this board is extremely draw heavy and this guy almost certainly has AA/KK so check/call flop and turn and pay for blanks... value bet river.

[/ QUOTE ]
If the board is draw-heavy, then that's exactly why I wouldn't want to slowplay this hand. Too many cards could kill me from getting paid off/any action.

I vote for playing this hand fast, making it seem like hero is trying to isolate and play this hand HU against the short stack. Especially if hero strongly suspects villain has AA/KK.

actually, the awkward decision is here:
 

[ QUOTE ]
10/20 NL. Short stack has $450, the effective stack for main villain and me is $2300.

Short stack opens for $50, I call with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], passive calling station surprisingly pops it to $140, short stack calls, I call.

Flop:

7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Short stack acts first and bets $150, leaving him with $150 behind (?!?!?!) I am next. I...?



[/ QUOTE ]

I call.

Villain min-raises (?!?!?!), which is just enough to put short stack allin.

Short stack calls.

Main villain has $1900 more behind.

It's $150 more to me, and any raise here by me is going to create a side pot.

I..?

(I should've ended the original post here, this is where I had trouble coming up with a good plan.)

Re: actually, the awkward decision is here:
 

either call, pray for a non heart/A/K, and check-raise the turn all in. he won't let an 'obvious draw' get checked through even with the dry side, so you can count on him to bet every time there.

or say "i was hoping you weren't going to do that. now we have to gamboool!" and go ahead and shove it all in there.

it depends on my image at the time. if for some reason im viewed as weak tight ill opt for the slow play.

more likely i'll have shown some stone bluffs like a jackass to guarantee me action in spots like this.

i am definitely getting it in there on the flop if the guy doesn't like me and would love to bust my ass.

Re: actually, the awkward decision is here:
 

if villain is the type to min-raise to "see where he's at with AA" then your small raise back might be interpreted the same way.

if villain is the type to min-raise with AA or KK to milk you (as horrendous as that sounds on that flop) then a small raise back will enable him to get it in the middle.

with that said, given this ridiculous action, i'd raise another 300 on top... and let the stacking process begin.

(this is all assuming villain is not very good but given the flop action, that's a safe assumption, no?)

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

if you are positive hes got AA or KK i would just call the 150, hoping that he would raise, then i think re raising enuf get both of you pot stuck no matter what the turn card is. i think the main reason why is because you dont want him to fold incase the turn card is a heart, 6 8 or J, putting scare cards out there that he could lay down his AA or KK much easier.

Re: 10-20: that short stack makes betting my set awkward...
 

I would min-raise, putting the short stack exactly all in. This looks like you are trying to isolate the short stack and don't want Villian coming along...could also be viewed as an 'info raise.' Playing it this way makes it look like JJ/QQ/A10, overs w/hearts or JQ. When he re-raises, come back OOT for enough to make him play for his stack but don't push unless his rr is large enough.

results, thank god he was a moron
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10/20 NL. Short stack has $450, the effective stack for main villain and me is $2300.

Short stack opens for $50, I call with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], passive calling station surprisingly pops it to $140, short stack calls, I call.

Flop:

7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Short stack acts first and bets $150, leaving him with $150 behind (?!?!?!) I am next. I...?



[/ QUOTE ]

I call.

Villain min-raises (?!?!?!), which is just enough to put short stack allin.

Short stack calls.

Main villain has $1900 more behind.

It's $150 more to me, and any raise here by me is going to create a side pot.

I..?

(I should've ended the original post here, this is where I had trouble coming up with a good plan.)

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I made it $750 more to go. My logic here was that, given the minraise and the too-small preflop reraise, villlain obviously sucked ass, so he would call a moderate raise, but allin was too much of an overbet and he might escape. I also decided I wanted to be allin on the turn with this hand, since a bunch of scare cards might come.

The turn was 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I pushed, he called.

River was 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], putting 4 hearts on the board! Short stack tabled J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and big stack tabled A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and MHIG. I was very glad the money was in on the turn.

I think the problem was that given the draw-heavy board, I needed to get the money in quick before scare cards hit, and the small bets on the flop just weren't helping me do that, so that I had to give the game away with a big flop bomb which a stronger opponent could've folded to.

Re: results, thank god he was a moron
 

nice hand. i think the key to this is knowing they have AA and are minraising sort of puts some assumptions in your head about them "sucking ass" and then you can play appropriately...

i've been thinking about this a lot in situations where you raise big with some hand like TPTK because you put the opponent on either bottom two playig the way it was supposed to be played or top pair played by a donk... you raise big because you think a good player might fold bottom two given the action and a donk who played a worse hand like this would call anyway. so when people have given advice saying "maybe xxx would fold" and someone else chimes in, "how can you say you want worse hands to call but better hands to fold???" it comes down to the way the hand was played out, it is a better hand by a good player or a worse hand by a donk and your raise is perfect in both situations.

that was kind of convoluted, i think i'm going to come up with a more concrete example, but i think it comes down to using previous information in a hand to decide how to proceed which is something i don't see quite enough of.