Bellhorn.
 

So done.

Or at least, he deserves to be. Will Francona bring him back when he gets healthy? Let's hope not. Graffanino is a class act, a solid fielder and a canny player.

I'd hate to see him have to platoon with Beezer and get out of rhythm.

NT

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Bellhorn > Cora

Also, over the course of thier carrers, Bellhorn > Graffanino.

I do however agree that at this point Graff seems the obvious choice to play 2B going forward.

Methinks Cora gets dumped. If for some reason Bellhorn has lost the ability to play baseball at the age of 30, then maybe they just leave him in the minors/DFA him, hes not signed for next year.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, over the course of thier carrers, Bellhorn > Graffanino.

[/ QUOTE ]

Career BA / SLG / OPS

Graff .264 / .367 / .721
Beezer .238 / .404 / .755

Surprising, those walks (and occasional doubles) really add up.

However, Graffanino has played in some pretty punchless lineups compared to Bellhorn, and I think we can expect he'll get more pitches to hit in Boston. We certainly saw that tonight (small sample size, I know). And he's a better all-around defensive player, more versatile, and better on the basepaths. I really like his work ethic.

I think it's interesting, when you have a lineup with Graff, Cora, Damon all together, you have one end that can be more aggressive on the basepaths and put pressure on the defense before the big hitters come up. I was excited to see them running the bases so hard tonight. They're not going to give you a lot of outright steals, but they put the ball in play and run aggressively. If we can just keep Edgar from erasing them with his patented 6-4-3. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

You're right, over the long run you crunch the numbers and it's hard to abandon Beezer, especially against righties. But this playoff run is happening in the short run and you hate to screw up a good thing.

NT

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Maybe the Yankees will sign him as their backup infielder. Maybe he could teach Cano how to walk.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Who?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

He stays on the DL/goes on rehab assignment until rosters expand. He and Adam Stern spoon on the bench from then on.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
He stays on the DL/goes on rehab assignment until rosters expand. He and Adam Stern spoon on the bench from then on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adam Stern must have pictures of Theo with a man or something. I hope this is the last time they waste a roster spot on a rule V guy.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Agreed. I can see small market teams going the Rule 5 route but not contenders.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

WEEI reporting he has been DFA.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who?

[/ QUOTE ]

that guy who hit home runs in game 6 and 7 of last years LCS, and was one of the best offensive 2B in all of baseball in 04.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who?

[/ QUOTE ]

that guy who hit home runs in game 6 and 7 of last years LCS, and was one of the best offensive 2B in all of baseball in 04.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's Franconalike thinking. He stayed with the guy too long this year(thank god he got hurt) as he has stayed too long with Millar.

He was marginal at best last year and downright awful this year.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

He was marginal at best last year

LMAO!

Compared to who? Manny? The guy had a TERRIFIC season last year (for a 2B)

Also, I am not saying he shouldn't be DFA'd, so its not Francona like thinking. You acted like the guy was Izzy Alcantara. I for one, will never forget any of the 25, especially one who playd an intricate roll the entire season.

Of course he should be DFA'd. Doesnt mean hes Jose Cruz Jr.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who?

[/ QUOTE ]

that guy who hit home runs in game 6 and 7 of last years LCS, and was one of the best offensive 2B in all of baseball in 04.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's Franconalike thinking. He stayed with the guy too long this year(thank god he got hurt) as he has stayed too long with Millar.

He was marginal at best last year and downright awful this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take it easy on you because you're an old person and probably have only a rudimentary understanding of baseball statistics, but Mark Bellhorn had an 817 OPS last year which is awesome for a 2B. He had a .373 OBP and a .444 SLG. He also had 17 homers, drove in 82 runs, and had 37 doubles. And that's not even counting his defense at second. It's pretty sad that a Sox fan didn't know that.

And for comparison purposes, Soriano had an 807 OPS last year.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Old person, ty I needed a laugh today.

You and Sublime can trot out whatever stats you want to try and build this guy up, but last year he was a marginal player and not good enough to be an every day player which is what Francona tried to make him into this year.

I too am thankful to all who contributed last year but this is this year and we're right in the thick of it. Also I notice that neither of you commented on my Millar comment.

Why is this guy still in the line up? Defies logic.

Edit: Comparing his OPS with Soriano's just illustrates how stats don't tell the story. they have similar OPS stats but are light years apart as players.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

You and Sublime can trot out whatever stats you want to try and build this guy up, but last year he was a marginal player and not good enough to be an every day playe

WOW! Whatever stats you want? Like OBP and SLG? these arent complicated stats by any stretch of the imagination, and they show that he was a TOP NOTCH 2b last year. You are WAY off on that one. he also had 523 AB's so he was a full time player WHILE he put up these stats.

Again. Bellhorn SHOULD have been DFA. I am not arguing that. Your claim that he was a marginal player last year is ludacris.

Millar being in the lineup is baffling. He should be DFA also. Whats the point? Are you going to tell me now that he also sucked the last two years?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
he was a TOP NOTCH 2b last year.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nope. You can't convince me of that. Sorry won't happen. I like you Sublime, you're a great Red Sox fan but you sound like a homer if you call Bellhorn TOP NOTCH.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Millar being in the lineup is baffling. He should be DFA also. Whats the point? Are you going to tell me now that he also sucked the last two years?

[/ QUOTE ]

No he sucked one of the last two years. Half a year in 2003 he sucked and half a year in 2004 he sucked and this year he just plain sucked all year.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Toro, I'm not a Sox fan, I have no reason to build Bellhorn up. I'm just stating facts- and the facts show that Bellhorn was a very good 2B last year, arguably the best 2B in the AL last year.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

I agree on Millar. If they still have Olerud they should start him instead of Millar.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: Comparing his OPS with Soriano's just illustrates how stats don't tell the story. they have similar OPS stats but are light years apart as players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. Soriano boots the ball a lot and is the worst defensive 2B in the AL. He has 18 errors already this year which I'm pretty sure leads all AL second basemen, and maybe even all major league second basemen.

No doubt that he's better than Bellhorn this year, but Bellhorn was better last year.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Toro, I'm not a Sox fan, I have no reason to build Bellhorn up. I'm just stating facts- and the facts show that Bellhorn was a very good 2B last year, arguably the best 2B in the AL last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell did this journeyman all of sudden become the best second baseman in the AL. That statement is amazing to me as someone who watched just about every Red Sox game last year and saw what I thought was an okay(translation marginal) player.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
No doubt that he's better than Bellhorn this year, but Bellhorn was better last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Like any Red Sox fan wouldn't have been in 7th heaven if Epstein ever pulled that trade off and like the Texas GM wouldn't have been lynched by their fans.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Well let's all just sit tight for a few days and see what team picks up arguably the best 2nd baseman in the AL.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well let's all just sit tight for a few days and see what team picks up arguably the best 2nd baseman in the AL.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the [censored] is wrong with you?

Seriously. What the [censored]?

Are you even a poker player?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Where would you rate Bellhorn among AL 2Bs last year?

Average? Above average? Below average? Maybe on a scale of 1-30 with 1 being Jeff Kent and 30 being Abraham Nunez?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well let's all just sit tight for a few days and see what team picks up arguably the best 2nd baseman in the AL.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the [censored] is wrong with you?

Seriously. What the [censored]?

Are you even a poker player?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. What the hell does Poker have to do with it and have u read the thread. Sarcasm my friend, sarcasm.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

I understand sarcasm. I don't understand someone who supposedly takes a logical, numbers-aided approach to poker making absurd statements like you have.

[ QUOTE ]
Nope. You can't convince me of that. Sorry won't happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You and Sublime can trot out whatever stats you want to try and build this guy up, but last year he was a marginal player and not good enough to be an every day player which is what Francona tried to make him into this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you suggest we evaluate players? Seriously.

What makes you think Bellhorn was "marginal" last year?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

I used my eyes. Stats are for fanatasy leagues.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I used my eyes. Stats are for fanatasy leagues.

[/ QUOTE ]

you need new glasses.

this isnt even a debate btw, you are clearly incorrect.

bellhorn was at worst the 2nd best 2B in the AL last year, and top 5 in all of MLB.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

they have similar OPS stats but are light years apart as players

considering they played the same position, this statement is hilarious.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

I give up. Put him in Cooperstown already.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I give up. Put him in Cooperstown already.

[/ QUOTE ]

for one really good year? no way, that would be silly. lets just acknowledge it happened.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I give up. Put him in Cooperstown already.

[/ QUOTE ]

for one really good year? no way, that would be silly. lets just acknowledge it happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Silly? No way. They could put him in the journeyman's wing and no I will not acknowledge that an average year is a really good year . Unless you're arguing it was a really good year for him which it was because the guy in 9 major league seasons averaged 66 games a year.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

IT WAS NOT AN AVERAGE YEAR. Don't be a blockhead about it, and no he doesn't need glasses. Toro may be a nerd but he obviously doesn't want to be mistaken for a stats nerd.

An 800+ OPS for a second baseman is great. It may be par for some positions but it places a second baseman in the top 3 in the league in that position for any given year usually.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well let's all just sit tight for a few days and see what team picks up arguably the best 2nd baseman in the AL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guarantee you that some team will pick him up. Maybe even the Yankees if no one else gets him.

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I give up. Put him in Cooperstown already.

[/ QUOTE ]

for one really good year? no way, that would be silly. lets just acknowledge it happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Silly? No way. They could put him in the journeyman's wing and no I will not acknowledge that an average year is a really good year . Unless you're arguing it was a really good year for him which it was because the guy in 9 major league seasons averaged 66 games a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

how hard would it be to go to ESPN.com and compare his stats to other 2B from last year? really. since you are aware that he has averaged 66 games a year, why didn't you bother to look that up?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well let's all just sit tight for a few days and see what team picks up arguably the best 2nd baseman in the AL.

[/ QUOTE ]

um no. we are agruing about 2004 and you are using this year and the years before 04 to make a point. did he suck this year? yes. did he suck prior to 04? no, but he wasnt all the field all that much.

2004:

Bellhorn
AB 523 17hr 6 SB 1CS OBP .373 SLG .444

Soriano
AB 608 28HR 18SB 5CS OBP .324 SLG. 484

Ummmmm, hello?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

Silly? No way. They could put him in the journeyman's wing and no I will not acknowledge that an average year is a really good year

who are you comparing his 04 season to? ruth in 1920? or a typical 2B's year?

Re: Bellhorn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I used my eyes. Stats are for fanatasy leagues.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, tell me. How many times last year did you observe the following players, and how did Mark Bellhorn stack up to them?

Mark Loretta
Jeff Kent
Marcus Giles
Ray Durham
Alfonso Soriano
Ron Belliard
Juan Uribe
Orlando Hudson
Jose Vidro
D'Angelo Jiminez
Tony Womack
Luis Castillo
Placido Polanco
Adam Kennedy
Bret Boone
Omar Infante