river raise with Q high.
 

hi everyone

this comes from a hand i played in a good 20-40. the CO bluffs a lot, and also doesn't fold. he will showdown anything. and this hand is showndown.

the MP, a good solid player, bets out. the CO who likes to limp a lot but then becomes aggressive post flop, and who also bluffs a lot, calls, and i call with QJs on the button. both blinds call, and it's 5-way.

the flop comes A, K, X rainbow one of suit. the MP bets, the CO calls, and i call. both blinds fold. the blinds were doing that a lot. it was a fairly safe assumption that the blinds would no wise raise. there was a possibility of a call by one or the other, and that's actually what i was expecting; instead both fold. so it's the 3 of us.

the turn produces an A. so it's AKXA; i check it down. the only card that can help me now is a T.

the river puts 2 pair on board, and it's AKXAK. the X is something like a 3. a low card. the MP checks. as expected, the CO bets, and i raise. the MP folds and the CO calls. my raise was a bluff raise. in retrospect however, it may not have been a bluff raise. that's why i'm posting this one. due to the action; how the hand developed; while i don't consider the river raise so surely a bluff as i did at the time that i made the raise, i don't consider it a value bet either. it was probably a pot odds type raise. i was hoping for the fold-outs, of course. does anyone here think that it may have been a total bluff given the action? how might have this hand been played differently? my image at the time was dangerously unpredictable.

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

elysium,

As long as the CO doesn't have an Ace or King (and given your description of how he plays this appears to be the case) then you have the best hand and should raise on the end.

Since you state that the CO doesn't fold and will show down anything then your raise must be for value (and is not a bluff).

-- Manzanita

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

You have nut no pair and given the action on this hand...that's probably the nuts. A simple call would have been fine as it's unlikely that the CO is betting a Queen (he too would prefer a showdown). Maybe your raise gets the MP out if he rather than the bettor has a Queen (but that's counterbalanced by the possibility (albeit unlikely) that the bettor may have you beat and also by the possibility that the MP may not overcall with a Queen even if you just call).

Overall, I like calling the river and woould expect to win the pot.

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

i agree with skp, youre not folding any better hands so just call here.

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

I like the raise, although I'm probably not a good enough player to make it myself.

It has 2 significant values IMO. First, it might be the best hand against an opponent whom you said 'bluffs a lot'.

Second, it will really help you get paid off on future hands. No matter what happens here, you must show your hand to the table. The next time you raise on the river, you know you're getting called, so it can really help you getting paid on your nect big hand.

-Scott

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

The only reason to raise is to make anyone fold a King, but that strategy fails against your described opponent(s).

Raising because you think you have the best hand is one thing, but trying to bluff your way to winning is another.

Did you lose to pocket threes?

~stephen

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

Did you lose to pocket threes?

How cany lose to any unimproved pocket pair other than the x? And if you had the x set could you call a raise?

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

You: [ QUOTE ]
And if you had the x set could you call a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not in this situation.

Post: [ QUOTE ]
the CO bluffs a lot, and also doesn't fold. he will showdown anything

[/ QUOTE ]
That was the description of his opponent so I would expect he would call.

~stephen

PS. I was under the assumption that x=pocket 3's, but rereading the post he said that it was low, like a 3.

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason to raise is to make anyone fold a King, but that strategy fails against your described opponent(s).


[/ QUOTE ]

The question is not whether or not a king will fold, but whether or not Jx or Tx will call.

-Diplomat

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

Are you suggesting the raise is almost for value here? Like if his opponent is betting with Jx-Tx then he'll call the raise with Jx-Tx? Doesn't seem likely to me.

~stephen

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

I think it is likely.

[ QUOTE ]

the CO bluffs a lot, and also doesn't fold. he will showdown anything


[/ QUOTE ]

-Diplomat

Re: river raise with Q high.
 

hi everyone

thanks for the responses. the CO who likes to bluff a little more than usual, and who also calls down a lot, called the river raise and mucked when i turned over my Q high. he had TT or JJ. the EP had a Q high too....maybe. no, actually, she had a backdoor flush go up in flames or something, or she had the TT or JJ, and the CO had J high. the thing is, no one had an A or K, and i knew this. what i didn't consider was how strong my Q high was under this circumstance. interestingly, having the bluffer bet into me gave me the opportunity to win it and may have made the raise a technical value raise due to the circumstances involved. the thing is, at the time, none of this was at all clear to me. my raise on the river was not founded quite as solidly as might have liked it to be. the call by the CO came as surprise. i didn't really think he'd call even though that is what he does a lot. and, i also didn't factor in the possible confusion either one of my opponents may have had wioth a hand like TT or JJ, and neither did i factor in their unwillingness to let their hand go even though it had little or no pot value. if i had considered that, my raise may have skirted the threshold of having value. whether it was a value raise or not is still not abundantly clear, but it probably was not. at the time it certainly was not.

why did he call? he calls. this opponent calls....a lot. that in itself was a fascinating aspect of this hand. as i put in the raise, i was doing so against the very opponent who i would least likely want to bluff-raise at, especially on the river. but i couldn't bring myself to call. and that is yet one more tidbit making this a very unique kind of hand; calling is better than folding, and so is raising better. but folding is an option. so calling is almost as good as bluff-raising! and bluff-raising and calling are both better than folding.