hmmmmmm
 

first hand. i have no idea who this dude is.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

Re: hmmmmmm
 

c/r flop, bet bet. he will call down w/ AK, 77/88/99/TT/JJ.

when he raises the turn his range would seem to be AA/KK/QQ/AQ (and some worse hands), and he'll most likely bet the river with all of those but only raise with AA/KK/QQ, so just check call. if he raised you with a worse hand on the turn, he is probably aggressive enough to bet the river with it.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

I'd cr the flop. If you're going to donk the turn 3-bet it.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

You realize that the K essentially changed nothing except you are now beating AQ or any other Q you were going to split with. I don't get the river lead.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

I'd CR that flop too.

Given the current action, does anyone like 3-betting the river? It seems pretty bad, since we are splitting a vast majority of the time, and losing the rest of the time, just figured I'd throw it out there for people to discues.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

I'm focusing on 'the dyson' because he was the first, but this can be addressed to all the flop c/rers:

Why are we so sure he'll pay off with an underpair or AK here for more than one street?

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd CR that flop too.

Given the current action, does anyone like 3-betting the river? It seems pretty bad, since we are splitting a vast majority of the time, and losing the rest of the time, just figured I'd throw it out there for people to discues.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree and I think you have it backwards. I would say Villains range here is QQ, KK, AA that beat us, KQ (outside chance of AK) that we split with.

A 3-bet here is spewing BADLY, as I think we are ahead here pretty close to never. We are hoping for a split at best.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm focusing on 'the dyson' because he was the first, but this can be addressed to all the flop c/rers:

Why are we so sure he'll pay off with an underpair or AK here for more than one street?

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you do with an underpair or AK on a Q22 flop against an aggressive player?

Re: hmmmmmm
 

Bob, I would checkraise the flop. With the flush draw and paired board, you are gonna induce a lot of calldowns from Ax hands as well as any pair. Additionally, he will often peel the flop incorrectly.

The way you played it, the only reason to bet the river is if you think he is capable of raising the turn with a hand like 66-JJ and not betting the river with it. As another poster mentioned, if his range is Qx/KK/AA, that K only moves you ahead of the 8 combinations of AQ. You are still behind 8 combinations of QQ-AA. Furthermore, AQ will bet the river very often so a bet gains nothing in that spot.

If you do think he is capable of making that turn raise with a pair lower than Qs, the bet/call is fine. However, I think usually you will be splitting or behind after the turn, so I would check/call the river. But like I said I think checkraising the flop is the right play sir.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm focusing on 'the dyson' because he was the first, but this can be addressed to all the flop c/rers:

Why are we so sure he'll pay off with an underpair or AK here for more than one street?

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you do with an underpair or AK on a Q22 flop against an aggressive player?

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah basically i totally expect him to call down with AK, any pair, and some worse aces. no one will ever find a fold with 88-JJ here.

i also expect him to at least sometimes peel the flop with some other hands like KJ, KTs, etc.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

i don't understand your line. c/r the flop, see what happens next.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we so sure he'll pay off with an underpair or AK here for more than one street?

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it happen a ton. AK probably isn't calling the river UI but it could. Underpairs call this down a ton on a paired board with one high card. This kind of flop get's bluffed a lot at 3/6.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

Dyson...

Versus your hand range, wouldn't it be better to smooth call and check raise the turn?

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dyson...

Versus your hand range, wouldn't it be better to smooth call and check raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
but i can then find folds... that's the point.

when you check raise the flop he can put you on underpairs and flush draws. you also never give him the chance to turn a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and take the free card when you check, which i feel is really important.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

But he's not calling down. C/R flop. Bet/raise turn. If he calls turn, bet river. If he raises turn, check/call.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
But he's not calling down. C/R flop. Bet/raise turn. If he calls turn, bet river. If he raises turn, check/call.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you go back to my earlier posts in this thread (i responded to it first actually), you will notice i suggested check raising the flop, so maybe you're not responding to me??

anyway if you're suggesting bet/3-betting the turn when you say "bet/raise turn," that's typically going overboard.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dyson...

Versus your hand range, wouldn't it be better to smooth call and check raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
but i can then find folds... that's the point.

when you check raise the flop he can put you on underpairs and flush draws. you also never give him the chance to turn a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and take the free card when you check, which i feel is really important.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is spot on. Let villain call down with his inferior hands and pay us off, and limit our exposure if he's got a monster on us.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]

anyway if you're suggesting bet/3-betting the turn when you say "bet/raise turn," that's typically going overboard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would seriously consider 3-betting this turn. The only realistic hands you're behind are the big pairs AA, KK, and QQ, but a lot of hands raise your fishy looking bet. And since 2 of the Qs and 1 of the Ks is accounted for, QQ and KK are even less likely.

In fact, I'm not sure why you would bet out unless you wanted to 3-bet it. I don't expect this turn to get checked through often.

I think check/calling flop check/raising turn is a perfectly reasonable line here. Against a total unknown, I think bet/calling the turn is too timid and bet/3-betting is maybe a little bit too much action, but certainly not overboard.

/mc

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against a total unknown, I think bet/calling the turn is too timid and bet/3-betting is maybe a little bit too much action, but certainly not overboard.

[/ QUOTE ]
okay maybe "overboard" was too strong a word, because you're right that our play up to that point looks pretty retarded and we could get raised by JJ/TT/AK there often enough.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

Yeah, I think you're likely to get raised by any pair and a lot of Aces.

/mc

Re: hmmmmmm
 

I think there is a couple of possible lines on the flop here.
1)C/R (obvious)
2) Leading this flop allows you to steal on succesive hands. (Depending on my opponent I either lead or go for a c/r on the turn after that).
3) check-call; donk turn

I am not sure what line is best but I`d be especially interested what others think of just betting this flop in comparison to c/r.