38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

2 New players at the table, MP and Button.

UTG is 22.4%/15%/2.5
CO is 66.5%/15%/1.4

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP (poster) 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (20.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls.

River: (28.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 38.25 BB

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

fold the flop.

Edit: you aren't losing much by folding preflop.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

fold / call preflop

You are probably dominated, out of position in a 3 way pot with 2 aggressors. Raiser is TAG, Re-Raiser has the same preflop raising aggression, your equity in this pot is very small. My PF actions would be fold / call / raise in terms of how much I like them against these opponents.

KQs looks good, suited broadway etc very nice. But looks like you are dominated by at least one of these players. You would have to be very lucky to flop the best hand or the best draw and you definitely don't have 2:1 odds for this.

The TAG is aggressive postflop and the LAG is also aggressive postflop meaning that your draws are going to cost you.

This flop is terrible for you, you have 2 backdoor draws and 2 overs. The way this has played out so far your overs don't seem live, I wouldn't give more than .5 outs per over and the straight is a 2 gapper for .5. This is approximately 3 outs and not enough for the given odds.

True

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

You're overplaying your hand preflop. KQs is usually behind to a 3-bet.

Flop is hard since the pot size is pulling you in like a freakin' black hole.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

Preflop: I probably call with this many cold callers but it is likely to get capped anyways so I think raising is ok. A Q or K alone is not likely to be good for us.

Flop: ck/fold, i might call if it was one back to me but with the possibility of further raises it should still probably be a fold.

Turn and river: fine, if the board was paired I'm probably just calling a 3 bet on the river.

Hard to put all of these guys on a hand. BB had JJ or AA?

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

Dont cap preflop, Your position blows and your hand isn't worthy of a cap specially vs UTG then with CO and button trapped in the middle you're bloating the pot and they wont fold.

EDIT: Didnt realise you were facing 3bet, then i thought you were facing it cold but your in BB. Either call or fold... i think capping sucks.

I guess you could argue you're potentially ahead preflop, but i think because your bloating the pot people will hang around which affects post flop.

On the flop i probably fold, i dont think ONE PAIR will win now(King or queen) and your BDFD is weak anyhow.

Rest is standard.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

i would just call pre-flop.
the flop call is close, but we're getting 10:1 with a gutshot, bdfd and some unclean overcard outs. the rest is standard

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
... a gutshot...

[/ QUOTE ]

not really
but we do have 3 outs so I think it is a call getting 10:1

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

Preflop I think I just call this and hope it doesn't get capped by the original raiser

The flop call is close, but I think its alright getting 10-1 and rediculous implied odds, especially considering you knew you were going to hit runner runner flush

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... a gutshot...

[/ QUOTE ]

not really
but we do have 3 outs so I think it is a call getting 10:1

[/ QUOTE ]


With 3 outs we need 16:1.
We are currently getting 10:1 and we are not completing the action.

I think this fold is pretty standard.

Preflop I call, I didn't even look at the 2 cold callers. I think preflop calling is best and the flop is an easy fold.

True

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

I don't think there a huge mistake anywhere. Propably like others said the preflop cap is a little too much, but other than that, you played it fine.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

3 outs is 14.3 to 1. + Maybe .25 outs for each overcard, that's an easy call IMO.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... a gutshot...

[/ QUOTE ]

not really
but we do have 3 outs so I think it is a call getting 10:1

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh i suck today (and yesterday). where's your avatar?

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
With 3 outs we need 16:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, I'm stupid too. I reverse my reversal and stick with ck/fold.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

2 things:

1. Am I not winning more than my share against 4 opponents here? That would indicate a preflop cap...When would you cap this because of a preflop equity edge? I remember something like this in SSH where it was suggested you should cap with AJs against 4 or 5 opponents because your preflop equity edge is great. KQs in a 6 handed game seems to be similar. I'm fully expecting to be wrong, I'd just like to hear a bit more about it.

2. The button had a HEARTBREAKER - AJ of diamonds [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

The cap is +EV w/ the cold callers coming along, although it's also an extreamly high variance play, but nonetheless +EV.
But, you have to fold the flop.
The rest looks fine.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

The flop is all a little bit 'Barron Vangor Toth' for me. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Mack

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

I don't know how you can claim it is +EV. UTG is a tight-aggressive player. MP and Button we know nothing about. CO is a fish so we have an edge against him anyway, but there is no way there is enough info to just assume this is +EV.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember something like this in SSH where it was suggested you should cap with AJs against 4 or 5 opponents because your preflop equity edge is great. KQs in a 6 handed game seems to be similar.

[/ QUOTE ]


I just don't think it's similar enough though.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

The mistakes I spotted are:
Raising preflop instead of calling.
Flop is probably OK since the pot is so big.
Going for a checkraise on the river instead of betting and just calling a raise.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
betting and just calling a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
nah, we have to get this capped if we can. i agree with just betting out first though.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

flop call seems +variance

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting and just calling a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
nah, we have to get this capped if we can. i agree with just betting out first though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If you're going to make super loose flop calls to hit a back door draw, you better get every bet in that you can.

I think the flop isn't OK.. it's atrocious.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

there were a few mistakes if you ask me. There is no way i cap and i am leaning towrads folding. I am 29/17 so i am usally pretty aggresive but here you daont really know what you are looking for except for a flush. On the flop there is no way that you can call two cold with basically two over cards (prolly no good) and 2 backdoor draws.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

How can anyone advocate not capping this river? We have the second nuts.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 outs is 14.3 to 1. + Maybe .25 outs for each overcard, that's an easy call IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need 14.3:1, you are not getting 14.3:1 and your not closing the action, how the hell is that an easy call?

Also if you are saying bdfd and bdsd are a total of 3 outs, then that is completely wrong. the SD is worth no more than .5 outs.

True

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

I think the flop call is pretty bad. Yeah the odds are there but if any of them has JJ-AA and even something crappy as JQ-AK you're screwed.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting and just calling a raise.[on the river]

[/ QUOTE ]
nah, we have to get this capped if we can. i agree with just betting out first though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. For some reason, when I wrote the above I was thinking we had a Q high flush, and with that I would probably be afraid to reraise. With a King high I would reraise.

Re: 38.25BB pot, KQs in the BB, or Let\'s play \"SPOT THE MISTAKES\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can anyone advocate not capping this river? We have the second nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

posters are talking about the pre-flop cap