MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

Reads: Villain is LAP. Raises before the flop with decent hands but not much aggression afterward. Only about 15 hands, though.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Villain calls.

I was hoping to fold out A-rag hands by representing the bigger ace.

Turn: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero calls.

The donk bet after my flop raise made me wonder if the Aces helped him (55 maybe?) so I slowed down. I wasn't 80% sure I was beaten so I called.

River: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

I think I might find a fold on the turn, particuarly given your read that villan is passive post-flop.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

I don't get the flop raise. What do you want other players to fold here? They aren't folding a flush draw. Like 23 or 34? I'd rather call and see the turn. Given those two cards I'd probably call down as opposed to raising as some point.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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I don't get the flop raise. What do you want other players to fold here? They aren't folding a flush draw. Like 23 or 34? I'd rather call and see the turn. Given those two cards I'd probably call down as opposed to raising as some point.

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It doesn't matter if they'll fold or not but I'd much rather they pay 2-bets with whatever they're drawing with. The flop raise is for value.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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I think I might find a fold on the turn, particuarly given your read that villan is passive post-flop.

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He's fairly passive, but not completely limp. I think he'd repop me if he had an A.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

I was hoping to fold out A-rag hands by representing the bigger ace.

Also, protecting your hand from somebody with 3/4clubs. (makes a straight with a '2'), and encouraging others to make bad and expensive calls. The pot is big, and there are many players behind you.

With only 15 hands on this guy, call down. I think folding is a mistake.

Well, does he slow play? Cause that was a dumb slowplay (he should have 3bet/4bet the flop, or C/R the river) If he likes to get sneaky with hands above a pair, maybe you can fold. But if this guy is poking you, hoping you'll fold, i call. Do you think he wanted you to call, or to fold? Generally do the opposite (hard to tell online though).

Any more reads on villain?

I hate situations like these too. I'd like to see if somebody advocates raising the turn.........

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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I don't get the flop raise. What do you want other players to fold here? They aren't folding a flush draw. Like 23 or 34? I'd rather call and see the turn. Given those two cards I'd probably call down as opposed to raising as some point.

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It doesn't matter if they'll fold or not but I'd much rather they pay 2-bets with whatever they're drawing with. The flop raise is for value.

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My point is that we don't want them to fold. We want them to call drawing to runner-runner trips. It's .05/.10 I guess. So maybe it's irrelevant.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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I don't get the flop raise. What do you want other players to fold here? They aren't folding a flush draw. Like 23 or 34? I'd rather call and see the turn. Given those two cards I'd probably call down as opposed to raising as some point.

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It doesn't matter if they'll fold or not but I'd much rather they pay 2-bets with whatever they're drawing with. The flop raise is for value.

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My point is that we don't want them to fold. We want them to call drawing to runner-runner trips. It's .05/.10 I guess. So maybe it's irrelevant.

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I don't believe that's right. We raise to protect our hand in this 10 bet pot. We have aces up, sure, but a gutshot will have odds to chase if we do not raise.

Perhaps it is a raise for value. Can we quantify that?

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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I don't get the flop raise. What do you want other players to fold here? They aren't folding a flush draw. Like 23 or 34? I'd rather call and see the turn. Given those two cards I'd probably call down as opposed to raising as some point.

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It doesn't matter if they'll fold or not but I'd much rather they pay 2-bets with whatever they're drawing with. The flop raise is for value.

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My point is that we don't want them to fold. We want them to call drawing to runner-runner trips. It's .05/.10 I guess. So maybe it's irrelevant.

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But by not raising, you are giving them correct odds to call at 12:1 and increasing w/ each caller.

BTW, what is MUBS?

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

monsters under the bed

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

My only comment is that you will never, ever, ever, ever, ever fold out a small A by raising this flop. Not at .05/.1, not at 5/10, not at 50/100, not at 500/100.

If you are raising the flop it is for value and protection but never for promotion. It's very important to realize this sort of thing otherwise you're going to be making a lot of raises in the wrong places for the wrong reasons.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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I don't get the flop raise. What do you want other players to fold here? They aren't folding a flush draw. Like 23 or 34? I'd rather call and see the turn. Given those two cards I'd probably call down as opposed to raising as some point.

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It doesn't matter if they'll fold or not but I'd much rather they pay 2-bets with whatever they're drawing with. The flop raise is for value.

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My point is that we don't want them to fold. We want them to call drawing to runner-runner trips. It's .05/.10 I guess. So maybe it's irrelevant.

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I don't believe that's right. We raise to protect our hand in this 10 bet pot.

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Protect it from what?

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We have aces up, sure, but a gutshot will have odds to chase if we do not raise.

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Again it's .05/.10 so I'm probably wrong, but a gut shot is usually pretty rare here.

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Perhaps it is a raise for value. Can we quantify that?

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But were just pushing opponents off of hands that are drawing almost dead.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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I don't get the flop raise. What do you want other players to fold here? They aren't folding a flush draw. Like 23 or 34? I'd rather call and see the turn. Given those two cards I'd probably call down as opposed to raising as some point.

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It doesn't matter if they'll fold or not but I'd much rather they pay 2-bets with whatever they're drawing with. The flop raise is for value.

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My point is that we don't want them to fold. We want them to call drawing to runner-runner trips. It's .05/.10 I guess. So maybe it's irrelevant.

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But by not raising, you are giving them correct odds to call at 12:1 and increasing w/ each caller.

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There are only two hands that that effects 34/23.

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BTW, what is MUBS?

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Monsters Under the Bed Syndrome.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

There's a diamond draw on the flop. You can't really "protect" your hand, but you could get them to put in more bets when they're drawing against your hand.

Also, a gutshot is certainly possible. A hand like 33 or 44 has 6 outs against you.

Folding on the turn based on a read of 15 hands is bad IMO.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

:leader:
so what you're saying is call and let them chase air? Because raising gets them out and we want them in donating money?

That may see good if the pot was smaller, 10 bets is looking pretty sizable to me. If my raise will improve my percent change to win this pot, why not do it?

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

:SHANT:

Are you saying we call the turn and river?

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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:SHANT:

Are you saying we call the turn and river?

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Once the turn is HU and he donkbets, 15 hands is not enough of a read for me to fold because I have seen 99 or 5x or flush draws pushed like this.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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There's a diamond draw on the flop. You can't really "protect" your hand, but you could get them to put in more bets when they're drawing against your hand.

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I think you make more by letting people with 0-2 outs come along then you make by charging a flush draw one more SB. Plus if BB's on a bluff you let him keep betting at it.

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Also, a gutshot is certainly possible. A hand like 33 or 44 has 6 outs against you.

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Really? The flop is AA5.

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Folding on the turn based on a read of 15 hands is bad IMO.

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I'm not folding this. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

i agree with everyone saying calling the flop is the best move. although this is .05/.10 so it's true that raising could be for value if they'll call with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 or J9 or crap like that here.

calling the flop here is the same as calling the flop in a multiway pot with AA in early position when the small blind leads a 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] flop. the only difference between these two types of hands is that i would never raise in the KK hand, but i would raise in the AA hand.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

Because it doesn't improve our chances of winning be enough to give up those calls. Sure one of them might runner runner trips. But we make far more when he doesn't. Note that we don't even have to worry about 2 pair here since we already have the nut 2 pair.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

My bad on the 33 and 44. Another thing you should consider is how you'd play an Ax hand on this flop. I personally like to fastplay my hands because I feel it makes it harder for my opponents to play against me and I tend to get paid off more when I have it. If you just call down with an Ax hand here, then by all means call down with KK as well.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

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My bad on the 33 and 44. Another thing you should consider is how you'd play an Ax hand on this flop. I personally like to fastplay my hands because I feel it makes it harder for my opponents to play against me and I tend to get paid off more when I have it. If you just call down with an Ax hand here, then by all means call down with KK as well.

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I generally mix it up with Ax here. Depends on what my kicker is and my read. If I think he'll go crazy with a lower kicker, I'll fast play. If I think he's taking a shot at me but will fold to a raise, I might slowplay all the way to the river. If I think he has an A with a lower kicker most of the time and will call down if I raise, I’ll wait for the turn and get an extra SB out of him vs a flop raise.

Re: MUBS or appropriate caution?
 

:grunch:
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Flop: (10 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Villain calls.

I was hoping to fold out A-rag hands by representing the bigger ace.


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I don't think anyone with an A is going to fold to that flop raise. The turn donk bet is starting to make me give the villan for the A. Why not raise the turn? Fold to the reraise and check through on the river. I don't know about calling the river UI.