50-100 hand
 

3- or 4-handed. Folded to me in the SB and I make it 300 with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. KKF calls in the BB. I have about 17000 and he covers.

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet 600 and he calls.

Turn T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet 1800 and he makes it 5600. I call 3800.

River 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Pot is 13000. I have about 10500 left and go all-in.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

Did you consider shoving the turn?

Re: 50-100 hand
 

Yes, but I don't think it would have worked often enough.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I really like your line. This way is indeed probably better than shoving the turn, seeing as you have around half the deck to fire out on.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I would think there was very little FE at that point on the turn - Which to me means that check/call turn or c/r turn all-in are superior.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I like it. About what do you think KKF needs to call GoG?

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I'm going to guess you aren't representing a set because I feel like most of the time you are going to be jamming it on the turn.... Using the logic that led you to conclude that a reraise AI on the turn wont work often enough (ie, you expect a call so you push a big hand and your opponent may be drawing and has either high card queen or a insta call hand on the river which is not a good spot for you out of position)...

So, I'm going to guess you are representing a flush here or 89 or some other flopped or turned two pair that boated. It's really unlikely you have just an 8 here given the action.

All-in all I think you are going to have to rely on Kane not already having a hand he can insta call here (any flush any boat any eight) and you are praying he will lay down any decent 2pair. I think if he calls here with JT its probably the same as calling with AK given your likely range.

I'm still on the fence as to whether I like it or not, but I think selling a very strong here is not so believable given your turn play. If I'm Kane I'm thinking you show me eights full or air way more than you show me a flush even, so that call with JT/AK looks all the more tempting.

-Jason

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to guess you aren't representing a set because I feel like most of the time you are going to be jamming it on the turn.... Using the logic that led you to conclude that a reraise AI on the turn wont work often enough (ie, you expect a call so you push a big hand and your opponent may be drawing and has either high card queen or a insta call hand on the river which is not a good spot for you out of position)...

So, I'm going to guess you are representing a flush here or 89 or some other flopped or turned two pair that boated. It's really unlikely you have just an 8 here given the action.

All-in all I think you are going to have to rely on Kane not already having a hand he can insta call here (any flush any boat any eight) and you are praying he will lay down any decent 2pair. I think if he calls here with JT its probably the same as calling with AK given your likely range.

I'm still on the fence as to whether I like it or not, but I think selling a very strong here is not so believable given your turn play. If I'm Kane I'm thinking you show me eights full or air way more than you show me a flush even, so that call with JT/AK looks all the more tempting.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think GoG pushes the river w? Imo its a bluff, or:
89/t8/a8, (KQ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], KJ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], KT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], QT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 75 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

With what hands? With this texture, I don't think 2:1 is a great price for AK type hands. Your response is exactly why good players like Gab get paid off way more than they should.
-James

Re: 50-100 hand
 

if i had an Ace or Straight I'd have instacalled.

edit: i like your play in this hand. (because my hand range on the turn is alot wider here then other people are assuming).

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace ... I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

With what hands? With this texture, I don't think 2:1 is a great price for AK type hands. Your response is exactly why good players like Gab get paid off way more than they should.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really easy call with AK imho.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace ... I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on.

[/ QUOTE ]thats what im thinking.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

With what hands? With this texture, I don't think 2:1 is a great price for AK type hands. Your response is exactly why good players like Gab get paid off way more than they should.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really easy call with AK imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the words of a man running very good against idiots.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace ... I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think GoG pushs a set on the turn. Him having an 8 seems pretty strange to me. So that means he is representing [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s? 2:1 seems like a pretty good price.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

did you guys forget that thread with GoG making this same bluff?

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

With what hands? With this texture, I don't think 2:1 is a great price for AK type hands. Your response is exactly why good players like Gab get paid off way more than they should.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really easy call with AK imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the words of a man running very good against idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im interested to here your evaluation on this hand. I thought 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] would have been a much scarier card.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace ... I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Imo JT is almost the same as AQ as far as calling the river.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace or Straight I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its fascinating how this game differs from my regular 5/10 (or 3/6). If I had anybody at the table who would even think about calling this with A I would be wetting my lips cause he would lose every single big pot against me. I wonder how effective changing gears from LAG (like GoG here) to nutpeddling mode must be in the right moment (and how long it takes to ppl to notice).
To the hand. I like pushing the turn cause its looks very much like a set but I hate river bluff cause I think (or at least thought) that KKF have goods (flopped goods, filled heart flush or case 8) here quite often. It seems I underestimated KKF's lagishness.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I don't think this is that hard to fathom. The river push after that action seemed desperate to me at first glance - and yes I realize there is history etc of which I am unaware.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

i wouldn't say that AK is a "really easy call" but, 3 or 4 handed game, against a tough aggressive player willing to make big moves like GoG, i agree with kane insofar as i'd think AK is good here >30% of the time.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

Would have been interesting to see reactions if KKF had posted this hand w/ him having AJ.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I think this post is just setting up KKF to get totally owned in the future. This post seems to totally conflict what he wrote in another thread...

[ QUOTE ]
The main reason I don't post my hands here is that I don't want to expose my play or what I think of others' play when I know some of my opponents will read what I write.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not buying this post and think there are some meta game considerations going on here. Yup. Totally.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would have been interesting to see reactions if KKF had posted this hand w/ him having AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. All this "I'd have insta-called with an ace" is intriguing to me. I think GoG's range destroys an ace here, but hands like this make me realize I need to be all-in bluffing the river more.
-James

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I can't believe you just quit GoG like that. I thought you were the new king, KKF!!!!!

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe you just quit GoG like that. I thought you were the new king, KKF!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this post is just setting up KKF to get totally owned in the future. This post seems to totally conflict what he wrote in another thread...

[ QUOTE ]
The main reason I don't post my hands here is that I don't want to expose my play or what I think of others' play when I know some of my opponents will read what I write.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not buying this post and think there are some meta game considerations going on here. Yup. Totally.

[/ QUOTE ]

did anyone here read strassa's post?

Re: 50-100 hand
 

was I close?

-Jason

Re: 50-100 hand
 

looks like play will go on.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
looks like play will go on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question that I hope one of you can answer.
GOG plays KKF HU right now (ok, not anymore, arb just joined). I don’t understand why they play.

They are both known as good players. But one of them must be better than the other (maybe just a small edge). I don’t know who is the best and I don’t care.

The player who doesn’t have the edge, should know that he is not the best player. He is good enough to play 50/100 and he should know when he is outclassed. Why does this player stay in the game? To learn? Ego?

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
was I close?

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo thinks Im full of [censored] that I would call here with an Ace, I'm just pointing out that your analysis wasnt far off from my analysis. I had t9.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
looks like play will go on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question that I hope one of you can answer.
GOG plays KKF HU right now (ok, not anymore, arb just joined). I don’t understand why they play.

They are both known as good players. But one of them must be better than the other (maybe just a small edge). I don’t know who is the best and I don’t care.

The player who doesn’t have the edge, should know that he is not the best player. He is good enough to play 50/100 and he should know when he is outclassed. Why does this player stay in the game? To learn? Ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

GoG is Diablos boy, so he probably plays this game for reasons Diablo plays.

My reasons are a combo of everything you listed.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
looks like play will go on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question that I hope one of you can answer.
GOG plays KKF HU right now (ok, not anymore, arb just joined). I don’t understand why they play.

They are both known as good players. But one of them must be better than the other (maybe just a small edge). I don’t know who is the best and I don’t care.

The player who doesn’t have the edge, should know that he is not the best player. He is good enough to play 50/100 and he should know when he is outclassed. Why does this player stay in the game? To learn? Ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

GoG is Diablos boy, so he probably plays this game for reasons Diablo plays.

My reasons are a combo of everything you listed.

[/ QUOTE ]

GoG is a punk little kid who happens to be a buddy of mine and plays poker for completely different reasons than me.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
The player who doesn’t have the edge, should know that he is not the best player. He is good enough to play 50/100 and he should know when he is outclassed. Why does this player stay in the game? To learn? Ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

This may or may not be the case here, but generally in the very high-limit games, everyone who plays thinks they have an edge. Obviously, most are wrong, but very few really understand the impact of short-term variance, especially in big, aggressive SH games.

The same guys often play each other HU and 3-handed in big games all the time (not just these, but LHE/Omaha/whatever). I think very few are doing it thinking they are a big sucker in the game. Sometimes that's true and it's three pretty evenly matched guys sparring a lot. But often that's not the case.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

From my experiences in high limit games, the edges you are looking for are different than in middle limit or lower limit games, where you are looking for some live one that has no clue.

In the higher limits, most of the players can play, but can they play when they are stuck, can they adjust from a full ring game to being shorthanded or vice versa, or how tilt prone are they, etc.

Because most higher limit players tend to have a lot of self confidence/ego they truly can't be objective and that is where they get in trouble.

You will be surprised if you comprised a list of X amount of pros and had each of those pros comment and rate the other pros on that list, you would get completely different opinions on various players by various players.

Case in point, Ted Forrest is known for staking a lot of players, well I know a player that is on the conservative side but with great discipline, he couldn't get the time of day from Ted because he would rather stake a more flamboyant player that is LAG that could win more money but probably lose a lot more money most times.

I have played in 50/100 NL games with a murderer's row of players, I mean world class players, in which I have made some of my biggest scores ever in. Not because I held the deck or outplayed them, but because these world class players couldn't hold it together that session. It was flat out appalling at first but I have grown used to it the more I played in these higher limit games.

I have seen some funny things where there will be 2 players following each other to tables because one thinks the other is live and vice versa, when I think both are anything but live or both are live, it is hilarious and I have seen this many times.

The higher limits are a totally different culture.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

In HU and short handed games I think some people have a significant edge but the variance is so big that its impossible to tell. I also believe some players will dominate some players but get dominated by others. I think its kind of A>B>C>A. Some styles work better vs some people. It takes a truly remarkable player imo to be able to beat everybody. I am almost positive such a player doesnt exist.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

I think a check/call "must" be better here on the river.

If he you bet and he has nothing and folds.

If you check and call he might bluff with air.

The price for you is the same.

Re: 50-100 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Diablo thinks Im full of [censored] that I would call here with an Ace, I'm just pointing out that your analysis wasnt far off from my analysis. I had t9.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i missing something here? strassa said that if you call with AK you should call with JT. now you say you would call instantly with AK but you (i assume) folded T9? how is his analysis not far off from yours?

Re: 50-100 hand
 

:-) i seen you on Full Tilt with 10K waiting for a game last night.

I think this hand is pretty good considering what you did, I mean hopefully you know enough about your opponnent that....

1. if he's trying to stop a bluff by raising on the turn and then you go all in on the river when the flush gets there and the board pairs, its pretty difficult for him to call you there. He must think that you can't possibly be bluffing in this spot and that you must have such a strong hand that he can't possibly call unless he has close to a nut boat.

You put him in a tough spot here.