spitting midhigh
 

i'm intentionally not posting this as a poll because the responses should be coupled with reasons and names.
the subject of splitting the midhigh forum has risen in the moderator forum.

suggestion 1: split into 2 forums, 'mid stakes' and 'high stakes'

suggestion 2: split into 2 forums, 'midhigh casino' and 'midhigh internet'

which do you favor, and why?

Re: spitting midhigh
 

are the limits 30/60+ and 25/50- for "high" and "mid"

Re: spitting midhigh
 

2+2 used to have both a mid-limit and high-limit forum. When they were combined, I think it improved the quality of discussion.

This forum has not had a lot of activity as of late. Or, at least, it does not have many new posts each day compared to the past. So, I'm skeptical that breaking up the forum will create more discussion.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I don't really favour a split. Discussion is slow and most people already know which posters post live hands, which ones post 50/100+ and which post 15/30 and read them.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

to be honest im not entirely sure if the discussion here should really be pertinent to the decision on splitting the forum. the people who post in this forum are 30/60+ players so many wouldnt be concerned with the outcome of this decision. thats not to say that the opinions of the posters here are irrelevant. there are alot of good minds on this forum coupled with alot of good judgment.

i have personally not posted 15/30 and 20/40 hands in this forum because i feel its unfair to the other posters, but if people prefer that the forums remain unsplit then ill start posting those hands here.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I think the limits should be enforced stronger. there are too many 15/30 hands which I don't think is/should be considered middle limit

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I think splitting wouldn't do a lot of good for the people like myself who post mainly 15-30 and other mid limit hands. I don't really see a reason to split up the two forums honestly. There isn't a lot of traffic as of late.

Scags

Re: spitting midhigh
 

First off, inquiring minds want to know who is the moderator of the moderators' forum?...heh

I am with Dynasty that we don't need a split bewteen mid limits and high limits. It was tried before and I believe the subsequent merger has proved to be useful.

The split between midhigh casino and midhigh internet makes more sense. The two games are like comparing apples with oranges.

The differences are many - both from a strategy standpoint (eg. Default river calls on the net are often default folds in live play) and from a posting standpoint (eg. online play deals with VPIP, PFR and TA stats as opposed to live play which depends more on subjective reads, tells, image, tilt factor etc.).

Besides, there are a lot of posts on midhigh right now that are simply of no interest to the live player eg. who's the best online player, what's an achievable bb/100 figure etc.

Incidentally, didn't they used to have a "Brick and Mortar" forum. I have no idea what the hell they talked about over there as I never went to it. I ask in case a split along the lines suggested in your scenario 2 will only duplicate the failed "B & M" forum experiment.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

Number 2 for me.

I think there are enough differences between the games online and live, and I do not mean just the physical differences, that would justify a split here.

I guess there would also be some integration with the B&M sub forum if we split this up which I would particuarly like. Hopefully it would generate discussion about mid-high stakes in cardrooms and to an extent what the games are like in the different cardrooms.

I also pay far more attention to the B&M posts of mid/high games than that of the online version.

Thanks

Lawrence

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I personally post both Internet and live hands. If there were a ton of posts on this forum, I'd agree with the split. But the traffic is light and I don't think there is enough volume to justify a split. Plus I think the eclectic mix of posts make it an interesting read. I personally wish people would talk more "situationally" then "pokertracker" when discussing hands, but as times change, I have to change with them I suppose. It's a close decision, but I'd like to keep it as it is.

Jeff

Re: spitting midhigh
 

While it might be nice for 15-30 to have a more comfortable home, as Dynasty suggested, this forum doesn't have a lot of traffic anyway.

FWIW, I think that 10/20 through 30-60 should be considered mid, all else high. To suggest that 10/20 and 15/30 belong in SS is a little silly. People playing 10/20 are making $50-$200 an hour, that isn't small stakes by any strech of the imagination.

TO CLARIFY
 

[ QUOTE ]
there are too many 15/30 hands which I don't think is/should be considered middle limit

[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the motivation here. I think describing the proposal as “splitting midhigh” is very misleading and I agree that if that were what was proposed it would be a questionable idea. But that isn’t the goal. The real goal is take what today is two forums—small and midhigh—and turn it into three forums: small, mid and high. Today’s midhigh forum would be very similar to the new “high” forum. It would be roughly for online 30/60 and up and for higher live games (the exact limits would need to be agreed upon by the community). Most people who today post here would probably now post in “high” and be relatively unaffected by the change.

The new mid forum would be roughly for 10/20 through 20/40 limits. Today, these limits are mostly posted in small stakes alongside 2/4 hands, but 2/4 and 15/30 really don’t (in my opinion) belong in the same forum. Really, 15/30 hands have no home today. They aren’t welcome by many in the midhigh forum (as Josh’s comment suggests) and they are somewhat out of place in the small stakes forum. I think it makes sense to have a forum in between small stakes and this one and I think there is enough traffic to support the three forums (micro limits would presumably be unaffected by the change so isn’t really in the discussion). In practice, I think the effect of the change would be much closer to splitting small stakes than splitting this forum.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I have mixed feelings, I don't post that much because I feel like for the most part the forum has been slow and uninterestering and a lot of the hands seem to stress the same ideas. however, if you do want to split the forum i think it should be something like 15-30 to 30-60, esp all party hands, and all 15-30 and 20-40 casino hands.
then the second forum would be online 50-100 and above and casino from about 30-60/40-80 and up. i think that the 30 and 40 casino hands are very boarderline, and it depends a lot on the game and the post and everything. however, i also think that the bottom line is the forum is to learn, not strengently enforce what limits can be posted and what cannot. it would be very stupid to take a good meanful post that we could learn from and moving or deleting it because it is not in the correct forum etc. so i guess i am saying that a split is fine, break it up into bascailly smaller casino games and party hands. and then big games everywhere, online and casino. but, the mods for the various forums should be juditicous about moving and locking threads.
dave

Re: spitting midhigh
 

For internet games, I think the difference between 30/60 and higher levels is greater than the difference between 30/60 and lower levels. I'd put 30/60 in mid. I think the only 40/80 game on the net is paradise and it could go either way. 50/100 is definetly high.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
First off, inquiring minds want to know who is the moderator of the moderators' forum?...heh

[/ QUOTE ]
Mat Sklansky

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the limits should be enforced stronger. there are too many 15/30 hands which I don't think is/should be considered middle limit

[/ QUOTE ]

At least for the online games, this seems like an illogical place to split, since most of the players in the 15 game also play in the 20 and vice versa.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
suggestion 2: split into 2 forums, 'midhigh casino' and 'midhigh internet'

[/ QUOTE ]
As many have stated, I don't think there is enough traffic on midhigh to justify this. It is perfectly capable of supporting both live and online games as it does today, so I don't see the problem with having them in the same forum. I don't think this same objection holds for suggestion 1 because it is more akin to a split of small stakes than a split of mid stakes since I would guess (completely unscientific guess without asking the parties I mention) that it would attract threads like the jason_t/entity/tstone discussions that correctly live in small stakes.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I stated this in Small Stakes, but I'll repeat it here.

I think it's best to not create another new forum, but to push 2/4 down into micro-limit, make SS go from 3/6 to 15/30, and put 20/40 and up in mid-high.

Since live 15/30 plays like online 3/6, this isn't such a bad idea.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First off, inquiring minds want to know who is the moderator of the moderators' forum?...heh

[/ QUOTE ]
Commudus

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Lawrence

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
I stated this in Small Stakes, but I'll repeat it here.

I think it's best to not create another new forum, but to push 2/4 down into micro-limit, make SS go from 3/6 to 15/30, and put 20/40 and up in mid-high.

Since live 15/30 plays like online 3/6, this isn't such a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that many people will just continue to use their respective forums anyway. We have for example 10/20 hands in micro limits sometimes and 3/6 hands every day. And I see 15/30 live hands in midhigh. I guess people post in the forums they get responses and feel comfortable in.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I think the more appropriate split is online/casino. However, I think the real problem is not limits, it is quality of posts. This is an espcially big problem w/ the online posts, where there are people playing mid-high yet still making boring, almost beginner-level, posts. Perhaps splitting up the forums as mid and high would help this out a little. Dunno.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

i don't want 15/30 here either, but it's because those hands rate to be waste-of-space hand history dumps.

how many of you would be upset with a well-crafted hand from a 20/40 casino session, and think that it had no place here? i would welcome it, and it's not because of the limit.

bobby's point about suggestion 1 not being a "total split" is a good one. but if people don't want to see the posts simply because they suck, aren't we spanking the wrong baby by simply separating the limits more?

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I don't see any reason for a split. I can generally recognize which posts are probably going to suck based on title/poster, and I just don't read them. I don't think this forum is so cluttered as to make a split necessary.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

i personally could care less about a well crafted 20/40 hand that was written with grace and style and has a tommy angelo cool stamp at the top of the thread. i post hands that i think might have been played suboptimally that i could learn from with the help of others. if these concepts are beginner concepts to you guys thats unfortunate because im posting them here.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

split the HU and short handed forum first maybe even into 3 or 4 forums, goodness knows it needs it like, 10X more.

not too many of the higher limits go full much anyways.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
split the HU and short handed forum first maybe even into 3 or 4 forums, goodness knows it needs it like, 10X more.

[/ QUOTE ]
Splitting HUSH is happening no matter what.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I agree the forum is almost always unreadable, and redundant. All of the party hands seem the same. I think one of the issues is beyond the basic most speicific hands will not teach much and are generally irrelevent. should i 3 bet this river, well maybe, but no specific issue, after those basic corrections is really going to improve our game that much or are that interesting. some post do change our game or perspecitive, but i find these very few and very far between. we all bsically know how to play, and i have found improving the small things to get to perfect or making them better is very hard, and so situation and player dependet it is very hard to learn is describe or understand in a post.
dave

Re: spitting midhigh
 

meh.

i think the high limit forum will start to become a brag central forum.

and then the mid forum will probably be tumbleweeds.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

i was referring to the value of the post/hand, not a rating of its prose

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I'd be for splitting into a Mid/Hi B+M and Mid/Hi Online. It comes down to how many party "What do I do with Ace's" 15/30 posts a month get here.
B+M 15/30 plays diffrent then online, heck half the posts say "Well if this was online I'd call down but B+M I am folding"

Re: spitting midhigh
 

You'd need to define high limit and mid limit, which, will surely spark a debate. Also, what about midlimit posting that is worthy of the ultimate high limit gurus opinion?


Leave it alone.


Dont fix what isnt broken.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

i think we should have a forum for forum creation discussion

Re: spitting midhigh
 

"Incidentally, didn't they used to have a "Brick and Mortar" forum."

Still do. Look left, just below Psychology. I post my Iris stories there.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the real problem is not limits, it is quality of posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

The solution isn't moving around where people make [censored] posts, it's getting people to make less [censored] posts.

If you do split, as I mentioned in SS. 15/30 seems to have more in common with 3/6 than it does 100/200.

I also think that if the forum could somehow disallow the use of the handconverter, things would improve markedly. The less people are able to hand spam, the better.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I dislike online posts that are just basically hand histories of nearly standard hands.
I dislike B&M posts that are based way too much off reads or knowledge that you could only have if you were at the table.
I don't think splitting the forums gets rid of these posts. I'd rather have the forums split into limits, with 30/60 being the cutoff for high stakes.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

the fact you even had to post either one of these posts as questions is very telling. who care what limit it is obv a good post, which is interesting and helpful is much better than a high limit pos post. it is the content not the limit.
and i think it may be spanking the wrong baby and emphasizes dick swinging and limit bragging.
dave

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I don't think online or B&M makes any difference at all to the people who play both, and I think that includes most on here.

I think there's a definite need to split the limits and favor a mid-high forum from 15-30 to 40-80 and a high forum 50-100 and up. I base that on two things.

One is I think you should post more to the limits you play and those levels close to it. You see the same cast of characters live between 15-40, depending on the game and what's going. That makes it more likely you'll provide positive input or realize you're not playing optimally at the limits you're at. That obviously doesn't prevent the higher limit players from posting lower to help out.

Second goes back to something you always see in the DERB thread and James282 was the last one I saw say it in response to a "Bingo" post someone made. It's basically that, if you have never played against that player, or even at those limits, you don't have the credibility to post for it.

Whether or not that's justified is debatable, but I can respect that and wouldn't feel punished by only being able to lurk in a higher limit forum I don't play hands in. I know James isn't alone in that view and wasn't intentionally singling him out.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

(Apologies in advance for giving suggestions to a forum where I'm mainly a lurker.)

I'm all for much, much more active moderation. I think moderators should be given more leeway to delete non-productive posts, not just off-topic stuff and spam. Meta-moderation (a la Slashdot) would be great but I doubt it'll be implemented any time soon.

Posters should also clearly tag the hands they post with something like "Live 20/40" or "Party 30/60" or whatever in the subject. Great restraint should be exercised by posters in responding to crappy posts. (These responses are the kind of things I think moderators should delete.) Inexcusably bad advice and other forms of blathering should be deleted by moderators. Bad beat whines, in whatever form, should be deleted by moderators or moved to a different forum.

I suspect that the 2+2 audience has reached the point where a mid-high limit forum could be the premiere poker strategy forum anywhere, like Small Stakes was in 2003 and HUSH was in 2004. But the user base on 2+2 is too big now to just let the forums take care of themselves. I think active moderation is absolutely necessary.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

(Apologies in advance for giving suggestions to a forum where I'm mainly a lurker, also.)

This seems like a simple problem that has gotten too much attention because of the label "splitting mid-high" when that's not what it's about.

Here's the issue:

There are regular posters playing 10/20, 15/30, and 20/40 full games who want to post hands. These hands don't fit posted next to 2/4 and 3/6 hands in SS where they get drowned out. They are unwelcome in the current MH because they are too simple, or they don't rate up to 100/200 hands, or whatever.

The point is these posts have no home and the mid forum will give them one - it's not taking away from mid-high because the high content, high-limit posts will still go there. It doesn't take away from SS because the 20/40 posts aren't helping a 3/6 player and most regulars like Josh. etc still post there. We're just meeting a current need, not decimating the "original 2+2 forum" or anything drastic.

Surf

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is an espcially big problem w/ the online posts, where there are people playing mid-high yet still making boring, almost beginner-level, posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this and some of my posts probably fit in this category. However, it is tough to get advice on 15/30 and 20/40 hands in SS because the typical 3/6 player in SH just isn't familiar with the level of agression in the 15/30 and 20/40, nor the vastly improved (but still bad overall) ability of the villains to read hands.

I think Bobbyi is right in that 15/30 and 20/40 are sort of in limbo on these forums.

Does that implie that there should be a split? Dunno.