Ugly JJ line
 

New to the table, no reads. I hate these no reads hands. Comments please.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($109)
SB ($36.25)
BB ($77.40)
Hero ($48.45)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($8.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $5</font>, Hero calls $5.

River: ($18.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $8</font>, Hero folds.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

easy fold in my opinion on the flop. ONly losing $2 if you fold on the flop. Q-2 beats you. Plus you're out of position, so if he's drawing, it's harder to play later on...

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

raise or muck the flop. as played you have J high.

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villain weak bet on the river, what does this mean on average? Did he puss out or is he trying to sap a sap of some money?

Sorry for a LC response, but the river is the meat and
potatoes here.

Cambraceres

By the way are you in for ssnl mod or not?
I voted fro 4_2 but he seems indiferent and behind you.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

I might re-pop the flop, but thats me. I turn is interesting, as it is another over but a card that gives you an OESD. You are getting about 2.6-1 or so, and the implied odds arent great, so I think I fold. On the river, hes offering about 2.5-1 on a brick, so if you think hes doing this with a missed FD or air, then call. I fold here though. Tough break.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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Sorry for a LC response, but the river is the meat and potatoes here.

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Agree. The river is pretty close IMO. I think I should have raised the flop too. 2 spades and stuff like KJ seem to make this flop bet at .25/.50.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

Fold the turn. You have six clean outs (probably) and I would guess that you aren't getting paid even if you hit. If villain is firing 3 barrels without a K or Q then you should have no trouble getting his stack soon.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

I don't think it's that bad actually although pretty passive.
How about a donkey raise on that flop and check behind on turn? Fold is not too bad either if you think he is not out of line.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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How about a donkey raise on that flop and check behind on turn?

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What does that accomplish? What better hands are you folding? Why build a pot with 2nd pair? Try to get to a showdown cheap after that horrible flop.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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Plus you're out of position, so if he's drawing, it's harder to play later on...

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

hero is in position

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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How about a donkey raise on that flop and check behind on turn?

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What does that accomplish? What better hands are you folding? Why build a pot with 2nd pair? Try to get to a showdown cheap after that horrible flop.

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So that I can safely laydown JJ against further aggression. Also lots of villian goes to check check mode with a queen here. I can see next 2 cards for $2.
Of course, I laydown to a pot size bet and I do agree majority of time he has a queen in this spot.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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How about a donkey raise on that flop and check behind on turn?


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What does that accomplish? What better hands are you folding? Why build a pot with 2nd pair? Try to get to a showdown cheap after that horrible flop.


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I would raise flop as well, I don't understand why this is a "horrible" flop. Its not great, but hero has best hand a good percentage of the time, and on a draw heavy flop like that I raise fairly often. We're not gonna fold anything we beat, but we can charge hands that have outs against us.

As played though, I'm probably folding the turn as well.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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How about a donkey raise on that flop and check behind on turn?

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What does that accomplish? What better hands are you folding? Why build a pot with 2nd pair? Try to get to a showdown cheap after that horrible flop.

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I think in this spot, we get to showdown cheaper (against hands that we are ahead of/ or that are drawing) by raising the flop. I was probably lucky in this hand that he bet the turn light.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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I don't understand why this is a "horrible" flop.

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2 spades and 2 Broadway cards. There are almost more scare cards than safe cards left in the deck. I agree that hero is ahead most of the time and raising the flop for a healthy amount to charge draws is standard. I just think at some point you have to stop throwing money in the pot with what most likely will end up being a marginal holding.

Getting to a cheap showdown should be the only goal of this hand. I think there are a couple of ways to accomplish it (including raising the flop). The key is to have a plan.

Another thought: Why aggressively contest a small pot with a marginal holding?

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I don't understand why this is a "horrible" flop.

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Getting to a cheap showdown should be the only goal of this hand.

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Dont u think min raise have better chance of achieving this goal than calling?

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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Why aggressively contest a small pot with a marginal holding?


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I agree about having a plan. I think raising the flop will often get the turn checked to us, which helps us get to the river cheaper.

I like being aggresive in a pot like this because I'm aggressive with a lot of hands here, and because I think it will often win us the pot right here or allow us to better control the rest of the hand.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

raise flop, fold to a reraise or a bet on the turn.

if no bet on turn check behind, then check fold river unless you hit you straight.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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raise flop, fold to a reraise or a bet on the turn.

if no bet on turn check behind, then check fold river unless you hit you straight.

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No, just fold flop, no reason to fight over this pot at all.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

If you decide to play jj passively like this, I think you should call the river bet. Nothing worse than calling flop, calling turn, folding river to bets that are not very big. I'd much rather make the mistake of calling a loser on the river than the one of folding to a smallish bet on the river after calling two streets.

Looks to me like villain has a t, q, or draw, though smaller one pair hands are possible. Decide on the flop what you think his hand range is and play accordingly. You can put him to the test by raising him on the flop. You very easily could have aa, kk, qq, tt, aq, kq, kjs. Or you can play the hand passively, as you've done, but then I'd call the river bet and make a note. 15 dollars is very easy to get back and well worth the cost of finding out how he plays from the sb. What kind of hand does he lead into the preflop raiser with for 1/2 pot is what I want to know.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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raise flop, fold to a reraise or a bet on the turn.

if no bet on turn check behind, then check fold river unless you hit you straight.

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No, just fold flop, no reason to fight over this pot at all.

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Im not so sure about this. There are several cards that could fall on the turn that help you, say the Ks for example. A flop raise could give you the chance to check behind on a helpful turn and get a free draw for your straight/ flush on the river.

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raise flop, fold to a reraise or a bet on the turn.

if no bet on turn check behind, then check fold river unless you hit you straight.

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No, just fold flop, no reason to fight over this pot at all.

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Im not so sure about this. There are several cards that could fall on the turn that help you, say the Ks for example. A flop raise could give you the chance to check behind on a helpful turn and get a free draw for your straight/ flush on the river.

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Why are we raising because we have backdoor redraws? That is just silly. The point is this is a marginal holding and we have been shown aggression, just drop it, you can find plenty of better spots. I play with you alot and I think contesting pots like this is a major leak of yours.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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Dont u think min raise have better chance of achieving this goal than calling?

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Possibly. Villain will definitely call the raise, but what if he bets out the turn for a reasonable amount? I just hate to bloat the pot and make his turn bet $2-3 more.

edit - this post has elicited some excellent thoughts on pot control vs aggression. What should hero's line be in this situation? We all agree there is a time and place for both. Is this the time and place for aggression or pot control?

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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Dont u think min raise have better chance of achieving this goal than calling?

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Possibly. Villain will definitely call the raise, but what if he bets out the turn for a reasonable amount? I just hate to bloat the pot and make his turn bet $2-3 more.

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I think it's a fold if he leads the turn after we raise.

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Dont u think min raise have better chance of achieving this goal than calling?

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Possibly. Villain will definitely call the raise, but what if he bets out the turn for a reasonable amount? I just hate to bloat the pot and make his turn bet $2-3 more.

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I think it's a fold if he leads the turn after we raise.

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I dont know why we are raising this flop, whats the point, I can see maybe if villain has a history of donkbetting into us when we PFR, but in a vacuum this is a crystal clear fold.

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Dont u think min raise have better chance of achieving this goal than calling?

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Possibly. Villain will definitely call the raise, but what if he bets out the turn for a reasonable amount? I just hate to bloat the pot and make his turn bet $2-3 more.

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I think it's a fold if he leads the turn after we raise.

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I dont know why we are raising this flop, whats the point, I can see maybe if villain has a history of donkbetting into us when we PFR, but in a vacuum this is a crystal clear fold.

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I guess it really depends on your image. When I play at this level, I raise PF alot and fire cb like crazy. So my opponent usually want to bet with alot of worse hands than JJ here. AK and 88 are all possible.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

While I agree that villains incredibly weak flop lead looks suspicious, a raise that takes down the pot wins us what, 6xbb a portion of the time and loses us what, 12-14xbb the rest of the time, not to mention the times we check behind turn and a worse hand bluffs us out. I cant see how raising here can be profitable enough. Like I said, if you want to make a point to villain to stop donkbetting into us when we PFR, thats one thing, but in general this is a clear fold. At these stakes villains love to weak lead so we can get stubborn and reraise, dont oblige them.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

based on what do u assume I will lost 16bb here. Do you always raise, bet, bet with mid pair?
$2 max for me.

This is kind of spot different to different people. That's why 6 max is a game of adjustment. If you are tight and villian is tight, fold and move on. I do this when I sense my opponent is taking a stand. It works for me.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

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based on what do u assume I will lost 16bb here. Do you always raise, bet, bet with mid pair?
$2 max for me.

This is kind of spot different to different people. That's why 6 max is a game of adjustment. If you are tight and villian is tight, fold and move on. I do this when I sense my opponent is taking a stand. It works for me.

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For your first part, there is 6xbb in pot, your raise is there for 2xbb to call+ another 8xbb=16xbb to raise pot. I assume that when you raise pot and are called you lose the hand a vast majority of the time, and when you raise pot and they opponent folds you win the pot a SUPER vast majority of the time.

As for the second part of your post, I have basically said as much in previous posts.

Re: Ugly JJ line
 

Looks fine to me.