5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

A solid UTG limps, and Villian ($1100) next to act makes it 30 to go. There's a reasonable but not good cold caller, and I call in the cutoff with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I have $1000. UTG folds.

UTG+1 is a mediocre postflop and loose preflop player. He's probably a slight loser in the game. He'll raise any pair, any suited ace, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ from UTG+1 after a limper, but he's also capable of raising weird hands OOP to isolate.

3 to the flop ($115): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG checks and villain throws out $50. Cold caller folds and I make it $150 more. Villain calls.

2 to the turn ($415): (7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Villain check-raise checks. I bet $250 and villain, sure enough, check-raises all-in.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

uh call?

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

How did he call the flop? This sure seems like a flush, and you could easily be drawing to one out here. Seems like a fold against most opponents.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

uh, I have a 6-high flush against an all in checkraise from an unimaginative mediocre opponent?

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
uh, I have a 6-high flush against an all in checkraise from an unimaginative mediocre opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has K high flush. The 1/3 pot "throw out" on the flop is a good indication of draw.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

what about a good combo hand ie a9 a10, aj with ace of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? not exactly his preflop range but maybe something similar to that. If he semibluffs aggressively then i may call

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
what about a good combo hand ie a9 a10, aj with ace of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? not exactly his preflop range but maybe something similar to that. If he semibluffs aggressively then i may call

[/ QUOTE ]

He is going to call a raise to 200 on the flop w/ AhTs or Ah9c?

The most likely hands that Gamblor beats here are a "tricky" red AA or KK.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

"He is going to call a raise to 200 on the flop w/ AhTs or Ah9c?
"
raise was 100 wasnt it, but aa kk are definitely a good possibility

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

This is tough because you are getting reasonably decent odds, but unimaginative opponent probably isn't doing this with KK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or AA[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
"He is going to call a raise to 200 on the flop w/ AhTs or Ah9c?
"
raise was 100 wasnt it, but aa kk are definitely a good possibility

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise was 150 more, but again, you put him on those hands after he calls a significant raise on the flop? You need to work on your basic handreading.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

If you made pot sized raise on flop, you would just have one pot sized bet on the turn and you would already be all-in and not having to worry about folding the best hand here. But as played, it looks like a fold. Too shallow and you are showing too much aggression for him to really think this is a good place to bluff.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

Actually yeah, I thought there was something odd about the raise to 150.

-Diplomat

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

If you made pot sized raise on flop, you would just have one pot sized bet on the turn and you would already be all-in and not having to worry about folding the best hand here.

I made the smallish raise to either:

1) induce a reraise all in for value, or
2) to build a pot should I hit, or
3) to give myself a chance to check behind should I miss the turn.

I didn't want to lose him right away, and I didn't want to build such a pot that if he does just call and fire the turn, I won't be forced to call off my stack.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]

1) induce a reraise all in for value, or


[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you want him to push? You want him to fold.
[ QUOTE ]

2) to build a pot should I hit, or


[/ QUOTE ]
Bigger raise = bigger pot.
[ QUOTE ]

3) to give myself a chance to check behind should I miss the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]
Don't see how smaller raise makes it more likely he'll check to you on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]

I didn't want to lose him right away,


[/ QUOTE ]
Why not? Seems to me your greatest EV comes from him folding the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
and I didn't want to build such a pot that if he does just call and fire the turn, I won't be forced to call off my stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
Either you wrote something backwards here or I'm confused. I think your intention is that you didn't want to build such a big pot that you WOULD have to call off your whole stack if he calls the flop and pushes a blank turn. But you can just play the turn according to the pot odds that you have. If he doesn't give you correct pot odds to draw, congratulate him on his good play and fold. But it seems unlikely that that is how he is planning on playing it. And I don't see how the size of the flop raise affects that aspect of the turn at all. It's not like you are FORCED to call of your stack on the turn. If you DO call all in on the turn it will be because you are getting pot odds to do so and therefore it is +EV and you want to do it. I don't see how raising more on the flop would make the turn -EV in such a way as to balance out what I see to be the EV benefits on the flop.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

Are you properly bankrolled for this game? If the answer is yes, then here's my response.

Your math is wrong on the hand to start with, it isn't $415 on the turn, it's $515.

You raise the flop to try to get a free card if you miss and to build a pot if you hit. You hit, AND have built a pot against a player that you say is loose preflop and mediocre post, PROBABLY A SLIGHT LOSER IN THE GAME. Then he check/raise checks... I love this spot, i think he has a pair plus redraw, and if he doesn't i'll pay it off and get him later or hit the str8 flush. Lets look at the numbers:

Preflop: $115
Flop: $515
Turn: $1495

You have $520 left, getting almost 3:1 against a loser in the game that check/raise checks, and you say is mediocre.... i call and take my lumps

if you called an lost this hand, i think you were either shown a jack high flush or a pair+redraw that hit on river..

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

you're right.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

I call expecting a one heart hand from villian. Your raise on the flop looks like you're trying to price out draws, and your bet on the turn looks weak. I think villian could easily be reading you for being afraid of the flush and trying to push you off whatever he thinks you have (trips/2pair/etc.) I think you're getting good enough odds to call here.

JKratzer

RESULTS
 

There was zero doubt in my mind that I was behind, but there was another factor I didn't want to taint the decision; the cardroom has a jackpot for high hands - straight flush would have paid out about 10k, making the call fairly easy.

After a few moments thought, I announced to the table that I had 2 outs, but wanted to win the jackpot, and flipped over my cards.

Sure enough, I was shown A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Against the slightly passive type of player, I don't think he's bluffing the river, or I'm even ahead often enough to make a call profitable without the jackpot.

No, I didn't hit.

But I think the question of the flop play is far more interesting.

Re: RESULTS
 

sucks man, but i lose this pot and smile... if he open riases with a3 and does donkey check/raise checks... it's just a loan that you'll get back with heavy interest

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
I announced to the table that I had 2 outs, but wanted to win the jackpot

[/ QUOTE ]

They pay out a jackpot if you make a SF with only one of the cards in your hand?

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
sucks man, but i lose this pot and smile... if he open riases with a3 and does donkey check/raise checks... it's just a loan that you'll get back with heavy interest

[/ QUOTE ]

His opponent got the money in good on every street and stacked his opponent. I would play the flop differently than he did, but I wouldn't go around calling someone a donkey when every cent that went in on three different streets was with them having the best hand.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I announced to the table that I had 2 outs, but wanted to win the jackpot

[/ QUOTE ]

They pay out a jackpot if you make a SF with only one of the cards in your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]that seems wierd... also 10K seems way excessive for a SF thats beating a big hand (not a "bad beat")... never seen this before on either account.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
His opponent got the money in good on every street and stacked his opponent. I would play the flop differently than he did, but I wouldn't go around calling someone a donkey when every cent that went in on three different streets was with them having the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wasn't calling his opponent a donkey, i said "a donkey check/raise check" and i love playing with people that open riase with A/rag suited... you can play strictly ABC and get this money back in no time.

against this player, and most that generally populate the games... i can't see you laying down this hand with those odds and it being profitable... IMO

post how long it takes you to recover this loss from this player... if this was the only hand you played with this guy, damn shame... but it's most likely not the only hand you'll play with him, and i bet you get more action from him now getting stacked with 56

i say NH and good investment.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sucks man, but i lose this pot and smile... if he open riases with a3 and does donkey check/raise checks... it's just a loan that you'll get back with heavy interest

[/ QUOTE ]

His opponent got the money in good on every street and stacked his opponent. I would play the flop differently than he did, but I wouldn't go around calling someone a donkey when every cent that went in on three different streets was with them having the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah el d, i hate those donkeys who always stack me!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
i love playing with people that open riase with A/rag suited... you can play strictly ABC and get this money back in no time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm... I guess I better re-evaluate my standard play of opening w/ A-rag suited. Crap, just when I thought I had pre-flop figured out.

[ QUOTE ]
i can't see you laying down this hand with those odds and it being profitable... IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the exact opposite way and think this is exactly where the expert player's edge comes from. You get paid off 100% when you make a bigger flush, but when you make a smaller flush you can get away when it's obvious you're probably beat.

Re: RESULTS
 

if he said, villian is a good player, one of the few at the table who's play i respect... yeah, but he said he's loose preflop and nothing impressive post flop... i don't run for the hills against people i read this way when the pot is laying me 3:1

i don't now and never will...

on a side note... u open with a3 suited from utg+1???

and yes, i think ABC play makes money from the player he described.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

i'm reading this as a full ring game.. was this 6 max or short handed game??

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
i love playing with people that open riase with A/rag suited... you can play strictly ABC and get this money back in no time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this is terrible. If you think playing ABC poker is a good way to respond to somebody who mixes up preflop standards regardless of position, you're going to get demolished by a good player. Just wait until you flop your set and only get action if your opponent has some super-concealed nut hand.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he said, villian is a good player, one of the few at the table who's play i respect... yeah

[/ QUOTE ]
This is so completely backwards, it boggles my mind. On a general aside, this type of comment crops up on this board all the time and it is utterly shocking how wrong it is. Just think about it for a minute. What does it mean for someone to be a good player? What does that imply for our willingness to lay down here?

Re: RESULTS
 

i read/understood his description of this guy as the typical WPT watching softy... why isn't ABC poker good against these players?? bluffs are almost meaningless against most of them, and they tend to overplay hands such as top pair decent kicker...i was stating that playing ABC against these players will result in a return, not saying playing above ABC is bad or to ONLY play ABC against them..

and this isn't someone mixing it up:
"UTG+1 is a mediocre postflop and loose preflop player. He's probably a slight loser in the game. He'll raise any pair, any suited ace, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ from UTG+1 after a limper, but he's also capable of raising weird hands OOP to isolate."

this guy raises with any "20" and just about any ace... not exactly a preflop powerhouse just trying to mix up his game.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you made pot sized raise on flop, you would just have one pot sized bet on the turn and you would already be all-in and not having to worry about folding the best hand here. But as played, it looks like a fold. Too shallow and you are showing too much aggression for him to really think this is a good place to bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

$165 is roughly pot-sized, in spots like this I raise $200 or $250.

excuse me for asking but what is a PSB on the flop?

Re: RESULTS
 

my thinking here is a good player, that plays a solid game that isn't chip spewing and a "loser" in the game(as our player here is), makes this move i then consider laying it down. still not saying that i would, it would depend on the situation, but in this case with the player described and the odds the pot is laying.. i don't fold.

if you're wrong, it'll be much easier to recoup the loss from the loser than the solid player

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

pot bet being $215, i prefer raising it pot if you're going to play this hand for a big pot... go ahead and light the fire, still would have ended in the same result against this player

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
my thinking here is a good player, that plays a solid game that isn't chip spewing and a "loser" in the game(as our player here is), makes this move i then consider laying it down.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, I understood that, but your thinking is wrong. A 'solid' player does not have more 'solid' hands. A 'solid' player has a wide range of hands. That's what makes him solid. It's hard to put him on a hand. So you have to lay down LESS often, not MORE. Which is why they get paid off MORE. Which is why they are solid in the first place. They make more money. Because they pull more moves. So they get paid more. If the guy is a loser in the game, it is likely because he is too straightforward. Which means that he has a narrow hand range. Which means that you can read his hand more easily. Which means that you can fold here. Which means he doesn't get paid off. Which is why he is a loser. If you do not understand these very fundamental concepts, I don't know what else I can say.

Re: 5-10 NL straight flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you made pot sized raise on flop, you would just have one pot sized bet on the turn and you would already be all-in and not having to worry about folding the best hand here. But as played, it looks like a fold. Too shallow and you are showing too much aggression for him to really think this is a good place to bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

$165 is roughly pot-sized, in spots like this I raise $200 or $250.

excuse me for asking but what is a PSB on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
$115 on flop, $50 bet, $50 call = $215 pot. So PSB = raise another $215 = make it $265 to go.

Re: RESULTS
 

i agree with you on some point and not on others...

in a donkfest game with maybe 1 or 2 good players and the rest total softies... why would i want to take a marginal spot with one of the few people at the table that are good? i'd pick a better spot.

if you do make a misplay/misread/get unlucky against one of the softies, it's going to be a lot easier to recoup from them than the good players

in a game that is SOLID, i agree with you a lot more here... going to have to get toe to toe with them in that game, but i just don't see it being +EV to get involved with a GOOD player in a field of ATMs

Re: RESULTS
 

the 9 woulda still given him the 56789 SF even if it also gave him the 678910 sf

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
the 9 woulda still given him the 56789 SF even if it also gave him the 678910 sf

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have 56 and the board is 789T, your hand is 6789T.

Re: RESULTS
 

I agree w/ TWP that most of your thoughts regarding poker are backwards. What level games do you play in?

Re: RESULTS
 

online: play up to $2/$4 NL

Live: play up to 5/10 NL