Born in the US but not American?
 

What is your take on the proposal to deny citizenship to babies born in the United States to illegal immigrants?

Besides the obvious satisfaction that these proposals bring to all the racist zealots in the US; Is there a rationale behind the proposal?

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

There is a proposal to amend the constitution for this? Silly.

If you are born in the US, you are a US citizen. If someone is seriously proposing this, it will go nowhere. Not only would it not go anywhere absent the constitutional provision, but the enhanced requirements of a constitutional amendment would make it absolutely dead in the water.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

The rationale is not to reward illegal immigration. Obviously not the most humane policy though.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is a proposal to amend the constitution for this? Silly.

If you are born in the US, you are a US citizen. If someone is seriously proposing this, it will go nowhere. Not only would it not go anywhere absent the constitutional provision, but the enhanced requirements of a constitutional amendment would make it absolutely dead in the water.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure. I responded to sirio in the mexican wall thread with this poll . It seems to me that the majority of Americans are pretty upset about illegal immigration and if you get rid of that loophole as well as increase enforcement, you would reduce the amount of illegals.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

I think a lot of the problems stem from auxillery problems from illegal immigration. For instance, its unlikely that a pregnant mexicam laborer has health insurance or the money to pay for a hospital visit, but the hospital can't refuse them. This means that rates go up for everyone else. Schooling is the same way. No SSN means no taxes means you aren't paying for all of the public works projects, but you're enjoying the benefit. I don't think this measure will get very far, but I think a guest worker program might alleviate some of the problems associated with undocumented illegal immigrants.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...No SSN means no taxes...

[/ QUOTE ]


This, actually, is sometimes +EV for the US. When undocumented workers pay taxes, and in many cases they do thru automatic withholding, they don't get a refund - they don't file. And the FICA portion is never credited to their phony SSN number.

Not a major point, but a lot of folks don't think about that.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

I would think most would have to be paid in cash, right? The business might pay taxes, but I don't see how anyone without a SSN could get a checking account. Ofcourse, this lends itself to those check-cashing places which really just rip people with no SSN off, but that's a whole different can of worms.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is your take on the proposal to deny citizenship to babies born in the United States to illegal immigrants?

Besides the obvious satisfaction that these proposals bring to all the racist zealots in the US; Is there a rationale behind the proposal?

[/ QUOTE ]

If some women are having their babies in the US to get their kids citizenship, then this amendment might reduce that. That seems like a rationale. Of course, we all know that anybody who opposes illegal immigration is a racist zealot, so it is irrelevant if there are any rationale arguments anyway.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If some women are having their babies in the US to get their kids citizenship, then this amendment might reduce that. That seems like a rationale.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's the rationale. It's not a good one.
There are MAJOR problems:
If the baby is not a US citizen, then what citizenship do they have?
If the baby is abondoned (legally or illegally), then what citizenship?
Will other countries comply?

Of all of the arguments against illegal immigration and of all of the methods to reduce it, this is the most absurd and cruel.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If some women are having their babies in the US to get their kids citizenship, then this amendment might reduce that

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are confusing the issue, usually these women are not illegal immigrants, that's a different problem.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, we all know that anybody who opposes illegal immigration is a racist zealot

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, most american people oppose illegal immigration and most are not rascist zealots, but of course some people in this forum qualify [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the baby is not a US citizen, then what citizenship do they have?

[/ QUOTE ]
Presumably their parents' citizenship.

[ QUOTE ]
If the baby is abondoned (legally or illegally), then what citizenship?

[/ QUOTE ]
See above.

[ QUOTE ]
Will other countries comply?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how their compliance is our concern. It's OUR laws, not theirs.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

Not gonna happen. No chance whatsoever. Anything requiring constitutional amendment is very difficult to do. On a topic as controversial as this, there is no way the constitutional amendment happens.

Anyone thinking this actually has a chance of happeneing probably also thinks that overturning Roe v. Wade means that abortion will be illegal in the United States.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would think most would have to be paid in cash, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
They don't have to be paid in cash. Some are, yes. Many get checks. And like you say, "rip-off (but perfectly legal) joints" make a ton cashing their checks. And so does Western Union when they move the funds to Mexico and other points South.


[ QUOTE ]
The business might pay taxes, but I don't see how anyone without a SSN could get a checking account.

[/ QUOTE ]
The businesses paying by check usually pay the taxes. Some just withhold and don't report. Undocumented workers usually don't have a need for checking accounts.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]

There are MAJOR problems:
If the baby is not a US citizen, then what citizenship do they have?
If the baby is abondoned (legally or illegally), then what citizenship?
Will other countries comply?


[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt any of this would cause much of a problem. Most Western European countries does not grant automatic citizenship to anyone born in the country, and I'm not aware of any of the potential problems you mention occuring on a large scale.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most Western European countries does not grant automatic citizenship to anyone born in the country

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Since you said most, it would be easy for you to come up with a list of 10 countries where this happens.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most Western European countries does not grant automatic citizenship to anyone born in the country

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Since you said most, it would be easy for you to come up with a list of 10 countries where this happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of the countries I looked up now (UK, France, Germany, Holland and Switzerland) grant automatic citizenship to children of illegal immigrants. Add the Nordic countries and you've got your list.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If some women are having their babies in the US to get their kids citizenship, then this amendment might reduce that

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are confusing the issue, usually these women are not illegal immigrants, that's a different problem.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, we all know that anybody who opposes illegal immigration is a racist zealot

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, most american people oppose illegal immigration and most are not rascist zealots, but of course some people in this forum qualify [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It is possible to oppose illegal immigration because undocumented aliens are completely vulnerable to exploitation by unscrupulous employers and have serious problems obtaining health care, education for their children, decent housing, and so forth. While illegal aliens choose to come here because they feel that they will be better off in the US even with the obstacles faced by the undocumented, it is possible for US voters to take the position that we do not want people working in the US to be exploited and hence to oppose illegal immigration. With that stance, however, must come pressure to reform the immigration laws to allow willing and needed workers and their families to come to the US legally with the protections afforded to citizens and those with green cards. Also every effort should be made by the US and Mexico to improve economic conditions for Mexicans so that they can support and educate their families at home and do not feel the need to risk their lives to come to the US to work under substandard conditions.

Being an undocumented alien working in the US is not a desirable way of life, and reform of the immigration laws is a better way of handling the situation than putting up fences for hundreds of miles through the desert and catching and deporting the same people over and over again. I don't see why that would be a racist stance.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the baby is abondoned (legally or illegally), then what citizenship?

[/ QUOTE ]
See above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you don't know the meaning of the word abandoned.
Generally, when babies are abandoned, their parents are unknown.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

LittleOldLady-You say being an undocumented alien working in the US is not a desireable way of life? There's plenty of them here in LA making $500-$1000 a week cash, not paying taxes, using public schools and health care. Thats plenty desireable to many people.

A modest proposal
 

Foreign embassies in the US are considered foreign soild right? Why don't we force hospitals to force all expectant mothers to produce verification of citizenship, and if they can't then send them on an ambulance to the nearest Mexican embassy where they can have their baby.

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

I don't know if I'd call the first sentence of the 14th Amendment a loophole...

Even if there are a lot of people upset about it, it takes a lot more than a majority to amend the constitution.

Re: A modest proposal
 

[ QUOTE ]
Foreign embassies in the US are considered foreign soild right? Why don't we force hospitals to force all expectant mothers to produce verification of citizenship, and if they can't then send them on an ambulance to the nearest Mexican embassy where they can have their baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't sound very practical, but it got me thinking. If, for instance, a Swedish woman would give birth at the US embassy whilst waiting in line to apply for a student visa or whatever, could she claim US citizenship for her child?

Re: Born in the US but not American?
 

Citizenship is different countries is defined either on the basis of the country of birth, jus soli, or on the basis of the nationality of the parents, jus sanguinus. While I am in favor of more lenient immigration standards with respect to persons from our neighbor Mexico, either legal or otherwise in the US, there is no reason that it would be unjust for the US to adopt the standard of jus sanguinus, because non-citizens do not have the right to illegally come here and have children as a possible means to keep themselves in the US. The US besides recognizing jus solis has also recognized as citizens those children born abroad whose parents are both US citizens and one of which has lived in the US prior to the child's birth. So even under the jus sanguinus only standard, the children of US citizens would not be denied US citizenship if born abroad.

Each nation has the right to determine citizenship standards, and nationals of other countries have no right to be citizens of other countries. While an important part of US history is an openess to accept immigrants in search of a better life for themselves and their children, there have to be limits. IMO, we should give preference first to Mexico, and then to other nearby countries, because doing so helps those countries by taking in their former citizens who then can prosper here and send back money to help their country of birth economically which makes for a more stable region of which the US is a part.

Re: A modest proposal
 

I wonder how the woman in labor would feel about the modesty of your proposal.