10/25 AK hand. I don\'t like the way I played it.
 

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $25 BB (6 handed) converter

MP ($3033)
Hero ($2814)
Button ($1368)
SB ($1584)
BB ($3093.50)
UTG ($4081)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP raises to $85, Hero raises to $225, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, MP calls $140.

Flop: ($485) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero bets $350, MP raises to $1000, Hero goes all-in for $2589.

I'm thinking I should have called his flop raise, and gotten my chips all-in on the turn regardless of the turn card. That way I don't give him a good chance to fold a worse hand. I still lose the full amount when I'm behind in both scenarios. Is it possible to find a fold here? The only advantage I see to going all-in on the flop is that he might fold his AK, but I'm not sure how likely that is.

Re: 10/25 AK hand. I don\'t like the way I played it.
 

I don't play this high, so my advice might seem a little novice but Given his preflop raise (if it means anything, I don't know how the game was playing) what hands do you put him on that you beat on that flop? QQ? He could have been trying to steal the pot from you with his raise, but if he calls your flop all-in you have to be behind. At best you are looking at going against a flush draw....

Re: 10/25 AK hand. I don\'t like the way I played it.
 

ZeeJustin -

I have learned a lot from your posts. Could you tell me why you would reraise to $225 preflop? It seems like that defines your hand, but is not enough to win it right there.

Re: 10/25 AK hand. I don\'t like the way I played it.
 

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I have learned a lot from your posts. Could you tell me why you would reraise to $225 preflop? It seems like that defines your hand, but is not enough to win it right there

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My standard preflop reraise is approx. 2.5x the initial raise. A large majority of the time that I reraise, I have the best hand, so I don't always want them to fold.

Re: 10/25 AK hand. I don\'t like the way I played it.
 

He also has position and it will most likely get the pot heads up...

Re: 10/25 AK hand. I don\'t like the way I played it.
 

unless your opponent is just a complete fish, I don't really see you getting calling by a lot that you can beat here. most competent players are not just going to shovel chips in the pot with KQ here.

I really think you overplayed your hand here, starting with the reraise preflop. if he does have a hand you want him to have (like AQ,KQ), your reraise is going to scare the hell out of him and make your hand almost transparent. By playing this the way you did you might as well type in the chat box "I have AK or better". against a good player you are going to get action when you are crushed and the rest of the time you're going to win a small pot. if he's a bad player then great, but even most bad players at this level can get away from a pair when you play the hand like you did (basically as straightforwardly as possible).

--turnipmonster

Re: 10/25 AK hand. I don\'t like the way I played it.
 

I agree with everything in Turnipmonster's post.....to that let me add a couple things.....you don't give any player info, but for the most part, I feel you really played this hand in such a way that any decent opponent can't make a mistake against you.....the ONLY possible thing I could see here is the possibility of making your opponent lay down his own AK.......

Re: 10/25 AK hand. I don\'t like the way I played it.
 

So what did he end up having, TT,77 or a big draw?

Results
 

He folded.

My thinking
 

During the hand I was concentrating on the fact that his check raise was so small. I thought 99, JJ, QQ, AK, KQ, and random flush draws like AJ, AQ, JT, AT were more likely than 77, TT and AA (the only 3 hands I'm behind that are reasonable).

Especially in a 6 handed game, I still don't really see why this small check raise means I'm behind when so few hands beat me.

Re: My thinking
 

Hey ZJ, sorry to take this thread down a notch in complexity, but if his CR was so small, what do you consider a "normal" sized CR in this case?

Re: My thinking
 

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Especially in a 6 handed game, I still don't really see why this small check raise means I'm behind when so few hands beat me.

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you have to ask yourself what your opponent has and what he is going to put a lot of money in the pot with. your raise has little value because your opponent is not going to just pay you off with KQ or whatever here. well, maybe he will, but he certainly is not going to on the flop.

in order to make money with one pair, you have to put him on a hand and play your hand accordingly. shoving your chips in and just sort of hoping he calls you with KQ is not the best way to do that.

my read is he is very unlikely to check raise you with a flush draw after calling a big reraise preflop, so you can rule that out. he probably has something like a low(er) pocket pair and is hoping the K is a scare card for you. as such, very few free cards hurt you and I would basically call and let him bet into me on the turn and/or river if he wants.

I hope my post doesn't come across as harsh. but I think when you get called by a good player on that flop your AK is most likely not the best hand. this is a generalization, but generally in NL backing your stack with one pair is not usually the greatest idea. so many times I've played a big pot in PL and been praying my opponent a) has TPTK b) is dumb enough to commit his stack with it.

--turnipmonster

Re: My thinking
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey ZJ, sorry to take this thread down a notch in complexity, but if his CR was so small, what do you consider a "normal" sized CR in this case?

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On UB people LOVE to use the bet pot button. In this case, that would mean a check raise to about 1500.

Re: My thinking
 

I think I have been unclear. I do not like my play on the turn. After his check raise, I do, however, think I have the best hand the majority of the time.

Re: My thinking
 

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On UB people LOVE to use the bet pot button. In this case, that would mean a check raise to about 1500.

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FWIW, on UB, raises/checkraises smaller than the Bet Pot button raise are typically much bigger hands. A minraise on the flop is a set such a huge percentage of the time it's sick.

Re: My thinking
 

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I think I have been unclear. I do not like my play on the turn.

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last I checked there was no turn, and we were talking about the flop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

the whole point of my post is your flop reraise is terrible. you allow worse hands to get away easily and you allow better hands to bust you. you have little information about your opponents hand and he has a lot of information about yours, allowing him to not make a mistake. this is bad.

having the probable best hand does not make betting and raising necessarily the best course of action, especially with an opponent who is essentially willing to bluff at you.

my only other point is a side note about reraising preflop, which with AK is not always the best course of action, particularly if it is on the low end of your reraising standards. the reason being you will fold most hands that you want to play against (AQ and friends).

--turnipmonster

Re: My thinking
 

I think hero is in a very tough spot if he just calls the raise here. If villain makes a pot size bet or pushes in on the turn, it makes it extremely difficult to call with just TPTK.

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you allow worse hands to get away easily and you allow better hands to bust you.

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I completely agree with this, but perhaps it's better to take down the pot right there, instead of giving villain a chance to make a move on us on the turn.

Re: My thinking
 

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I think hero is in a very tough spot if he just calls the raise here. If villain makes a pot size bet or pushes in on the turn, it makes it extremely difficult to call with just TPTK.

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you allow worse hands to get away easily and you allow better hands to bust you.

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I completely agree with this, but perhaps it's better to take down the pot right there, instead of giving villain a chance to make a move on us on the turn.

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Are you saying that you prefer the hero pushing it in on the flop as he did? I understand that you usually want to be the bettor, not the caller. On the other hand, our hero was clearly prepared to go to the felt with this hand, so folding is out. All worse hands (we seem to agree) will fold to the reraise and all better hands are going to call him, so there is value equity nor no bluffing equity to the reraise. So what does it hurt to call and, perhaps, snap off a bluff?

There are two only downsides that I see: First, a worse hand who would have folded hits one of his (very few) outs on the turn. Second, there was a little bluffing equity against another AK, and now he splits the big pot rather than winning the small one. However, I think the possibility of KQ betting out, plus the possibility of a total bluff trying it again exceeds these two downsides enough to make it worth the risk.

Or are you saying that he should have folded to the flop check-raise? I can't disagree with this terribly strongly, and there are certainly players against whom I think it is the right play. But I think that ZeeJustin has correctly pointed out that it is really unlikely that the hands that beat him would have played this way.

Re: My thinking
 

I agree I would feel like I was in a tough spot there too, but hero seems ok with playing a big pot. I infinitely prefer calling a big bet on the turn to being called allin on the flop, because there is a chance he is bluffing if he is betting into me on the turn. if he calls my allin on the flop, chances are he can beat one pair.

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but perhaps it's better to take down the pot right there,

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my thinking on this is perhaps a little binary, but here's what I think. if, when you raise:
a) you will only be called by a better hand
b) you are wanting to win the pot right now

then you are bluffing. and I don't see the point of bluffing in this situation. IMO hero should be thinking about how he is going to get to a showdown, and more important what his read is of his opponent. if I was in this hand, I would also have been thinking about how to get to a showdown without committing my entire stack if I hit. that doesn't seem to be a concern for hero, for perhaps valid reasons that we don't know about.

--turnipmonster

Re: My thinking
 

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Are you saying that you prefer the hero pushing it in on the flop as he did?

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Yeah I guess I am. I don't know if Zee is willing to go to the felt with just TPTK on the turn. Some of you have ruled out a flush draw, but I think that's very possible hand for villain. If a 3rd heart hits on the turn and I'm facing a big bet I wouldn't be so comfortable with just TPTK, hell I wouldn’t be comfortable with whatever hit the turn. So yeah pushing in on the flop probably won't win you any more money if he was bluffing or has a small pp but it also wont allow you to get bluffed of a decent pot on the turn. On the other hand if Zee doesn’t mind going to the felt with this hand or has some read that we don’t know about, calling is obviously the better play.

Re: My thinking
 

Turnip,

say hero calls the flop bet, and then villain checks the turn.....do you bet here or check behind?......I think here hero should probably bet (again, this is all assuming he's willing to go to felt anyway) simply because even if villain was on a flop bluff, he could have outs on the river.......and a KQ type hand would call here moreso than calling an all-in flop bet.......then hero can check behind the river.....agree?

Re: My thinking
 

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But I think that ZeeJustin has correctly pointed out that it is really unlikely that the hands that beat him would have played this way.

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No he hasn't, a small check raise is the best way his opponet can get him to put more money in with a hand he dominates.

Re: My thinking
 

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I'm thinking I should have called his flop raise, and gotten my chips all-in on the turn regardless of the turn card. That way I don't give him a good chance to fold a worse hand. I still lose the full amount when I'm behind in both scenarios.

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Sorry I just read this, it appears that Zee is indeed willing to go to the felt here, I just hope he isn't willing to do it every time he has TPTK.

Re: My thinking
 

Just my opinion but villain isnt checking the turn no matter what he has.

Re: My thinking
 

betting the turn and checking the river would be my default line for what it's worth.

--turnipmonster

Re: My thinking
 

agreed.