5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

5-5 No Limit game at Foxwoods. EP loose raiser makes it $30, 2 MP players call, several players fold. I am on button with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I make it $150. Blinds fold, EP calls and 1 MP calls. Pot is $500.

I have $7,500 at the start of this hand. Villain (MP) has me covered, and from what I have seen, is pretty loose pre-flop but plays well post-flop, fairly tricky and aggressive. He definitely plays some speculative hands pre-flop so it is difficult to narrow his holding much, even when calling $150 pre-flop.

Anyway, the flop comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Two checks to me. I bet $400, EP folds, and MP calls fairly quickly. At this point I am thinking a flush draw, probably with two overcards, is his most likely holding.

Pot $1,300. Turn is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

He checks. I bet $800. Villain (again fairly quickly) makes it $2,000.

Hero? If you advocate just a call, I would like to know what you do if faced with a push on the river (assuming the board doesn't pair).

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

villain could be trying to push you off your high cards.

I'd be reluctant to not see a river. I'd probably fold to a push but call a reasonable bet here. He could be putting you on the missed flush draw.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

The only hand that beats you at this point is exactly 7-9. I don't know if I can put the villian on that hand with him making the $150 pre-flop call. This looks like a pair and a draw to me, maybe A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]-K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] maybe 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]-J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], but that is a stretch with the pre-flop action.

I think I push. A call doesn't suck, but there are a lot of river cards that will make you throw up. If the river is a brick, I definitely call a river bet. If it is a broadway card. I still call a reasonable bet.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

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The only hand that beats you at this point is exactly 7-9.

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Or 57.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

I'm not sure of his range of hands, given you say he plays some speculative cards. Would he play a suited one gapper for that much out of position pre flop? The only hands here you're in big trouble against are 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. You're 22% and 20% against them respectively. Any other holding I think you're in good shape. 84% against AK [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 95% against an overpair, an underset is drawing real slim, and if that T made him 2 pair, he's drawing dead. I don't like a flat call here, I think it's a push or fold situation. I think I'd shut my eyes and push.

Out of curiosity, is this an uncapped buy-in game? That's pretty deep.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

Tough hand, I play in pretty loose 5-10 live game where situations like this come up all the time. As a couple of the previous posters said, two hands you fear here are 9-7 and 7-5. Sounds like villian could have one of the two as well as making a nice semi bluff with flush draw. Don't really like calling b/c if the heart gets there on the river it further complicates your decision. Hopefully you can get a good read off of him, but based on my live play experience, I think you are ahead here more often than you are behind and I would probably push.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

Push (depending on villian)....Sets might pay you off and you charge the max for the flush draws. 7-5 and 7-9 are both very possible but you've got to take you're chances. The good news is you've got outs if they have the str8.

I play in that game allot. Do you know the villians name (or have a description)?

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

Seems possible that villian has A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or a set worse than yours. Of course, he could also have the str8, but that seems unlikely because he cold-called a biggish raise in MP, and then a much bigger raise from you. So unless it's normal for him to call one or two raises oop with any two cards, then we can probably all but rule out the str8.

So he's either got a pair and the flush draw, or a set.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Puuuush [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

really dope hand.
im gonna AIM AZK and tell him to move this hand to high stakes...
this looks like a call.
OP, any chance MP guy will lay down a straight if a heart comes on the end and u movwe in? do u think he would call a turn push with a set of fours (yes, id assume?)...
if the other guy mves in on a blank river, i would probably call, but it is a v tough spot...

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems possible that villian has A T or a set worse than yours. Of course, he could also have the str8, but that seems unlikely because he cold-called a biggish raise in MP, and then a much bigger raise from you. So unless it's normal for him to call one or two raises oop with any two cards, then we can probably all but rule out the str8.

So he's either got a pair and the flush draw, or a set.

Puuuush

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i think a str8 is much more likely than you probably think. This is a deep stack game where people play a lot of crazy crap preflop. And many are capable of laying down sets to a push here (which is an argument for calling).

All that said i like a push too. But it's a grey area and it's a not a good of spot for villain as you seem to think.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems possible that villian has A T or a set worse than yours. Of course, he could also have the str8, but that seems unlikely because he cold-called a biggish raise in MP, and then a much bigger raise from you. So unless it's normal for him to call one or two raises oop with any two cards, then we can probably all but rule out the str8.

So he's either got a pair and the flush draw, or a set.

Puuuush

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i think a str8 is much more likely than you probably think. This is a deep stack game where people play a lot of crazy crap preflop. And many are capable of laying down sets to a push here (which is an argument for calling).

All that said i like a push too. But it's a grey area and it's a not a good of spot for villain as you seem to think.

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Well, if we can't limit his hand range as much as my first post suggests, I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with you. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But what do you think that the effect of the Hero's 2/3 pot turn bet is? This would certainly look weak to me. It's only 2x the size of his flop bet. This should prolly be factored in as well. I still like pushing here, but I'm very interested to hear what some of the HSNL players think.

Also, does anyone think that the $800 turn bet is a mistake?

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

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Also, does anyone think that the $800 turn bet is a mistake?

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I agree that a pottish sized bet would be better and it would make the rest of the hand play easier.

The more i think about this hand the more i think it comes down to whether or not villian will call an allin with a smaller set. If he will, push. If not, i think it's probably worth risking a scary river card and calling the turn.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

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The more i think about this hand the more i think it comes down to whether or not villian will call an allin with a smaller set.

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What kind of player would call two raises with a crappy one-gapper in one scenario, and then lay down a set on a board that he's gotta think he's dominating in another? I think the reason this doesn't add up is because we don't have enough info about this actual player. Just me thinking "hey, MOST people don't make those calls preflop with a one-gapper," and you thinking "many people WILL make that preflop call in that f'ed up Foxwoods game, and many others will lay down a set in this situation" is only confusing the issue.

I completely agree that this hand is all about reads. I would be suprised if anyone can offer a definitive line here without better info.

BTW Aggie, I thought that 5/5 game was wicked soft. Is this not true? I've only played at Foxwwods once in the last year or so. I didn't play 5/5, but I can say with a certainly that the 2/5 players were AWFUL.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

marlow plz stop posting...
this is an intersting hand and your analysis is sucking up this thread.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

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What kind of player would call two raises with a crappy one-gapper in one scenario, and then lay down a set on a board that he's gotta think he's dominating in another?

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Me...I have many times in that exact game gotten $150 in the pot pre-flop with a suited 1-gap. I've also layed down undersets many times. This game plays extremely different from typical online 100bb stack games. With 1500BB stacks, you can play almost anything preflop if the game is right

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Just me thinking "hey, MOST people don't make those calls preflop with a one-gapper," and you thinking "many people WILL make that preflop call in that f'ed up Foxwoods game, and many others will lay down a set in this situation" is only confusing the issue.

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Okay let me change it up a bit. Many VERY GOOD players WILL make that preflop call in that game (although perhaps not on a regular basis [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

[ QUOTE ]
BTW Aggie, I thought that 5/5 game was wicked soft. Is this not true? I've only played at Foxwwods once in the last year or so.

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the game is soft on fridays and the weekends as a good rule of thumb. The game varies drasically during the week and can be extremely tough at times. There are almost always some good players lurking around


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I didn't play 5/5, but I can say with a certainly that the 2/5 players were AWFUL.

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Yup [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

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this looks like a call.

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Flawless,

the river is the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and villian bets $2500. What do you do?
the river is the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and villian pushes. What do you do?

the river is the is a blank and villian bets $2500. What do you do?
the river is the is a blank and villian pushes. What do you do?

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
marlow plz stop posting...
this is an intersting hand and your analysis is sucking up this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

God, you really are the biggest jerk on 2+2 aren't you? If you have something constructive to add, then I suggest you do that. Otherwise, us lowly mid-limit players are here to learn and will continue to do whatever it is we feel we need to do so. So if you don't like my questions and comments, I suggest you either a) set your preferences so that you are ignoring my posts; b) offer some kind of actual ANALYSIS for once; or c) find another [censored] hobby.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

I definitely don't like pushing. I don't know what some of you guys are saying as far as "charging the flush draw"--a naked flush draw isn't going to call a push, and any draw that will call your push has odds anyway (straight/flush draw). I think a straight is very likely (97) due to the flop action. This looks like a call for sure. The river is going to be very tough without a board pair. Call, spike the case T, and stack him.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

1. Don't reraise preflop, multiway action is great for this hand.

2. At the risk of being an a-hole, there is really no way to evaluate this hand without more information. This is live, so tell us more. I generally am more inclined to think set than straight because of the $150 although you said he is loose. I actually like a reraise more than a call here because there are some action-killing river cards and I have a real hard time giving him a straight. But that said you just have to make a read and go with it.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

Yes, it is an uncapped buy-in.

Re: 5-5 No Limit Deep stack hand
 

Aggie-
I don't know the villain's name, but he is 40ish, pretty tall, brown curlyish short hair, pretty quiet and non-descript. I play in the Foxwoods game every couple or weeks and I have only seen him there one other time that I remember.

Results
 

I think I may have overthought this hand (or I just need to trust my instincts more) because I felt that he had a straight (probably with 9-7), but I couldn't shake the feeling that he could easily play an underset or two pair the same way, and that there were many more possible combinations for those hands than suited 9-7's or 7-5's. I was not really afraid of a flush draw at this point, unless it was with an already made straight, because I didn't think he would make that play without at least two pair made.

I pushed on two notions:
1) that he would pay off with undersets and maybe two pair, and that I had better outs against a straight than he would against my set
2) i was committed to getting all my money in, so I might as well make sure that no river card could kill the action.

Anyway, he instacalled and flipped over 9-7, and the river came the fourth 10.