Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

This is me playing like an ass, because I've seen too many players showdown with crap. This is me reacting in the wrong direction as my downswing begins its 3rd month.


UTG is 81/1.75/.3 over 80 hands or so.
Button is 57/9/.74 over the same amount.


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP folds, Button calls.

I 3-bet? wtf.

Turn: (7.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Oh look, everyones passive now, they think I've got an 8.
River: (10.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Regardless, no one will fold. ever.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB


Villain is same as UTG above.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (2.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero ??

Fold, right?

Final Pot: 6.25 BB


Villain is Button from previous hand.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, SB folds.

I know... fold preflop.

Flop: (7 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO folds.
PF raiser donkbets the turn. Duh, he's got a good ace, I should fold.

River: (7 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero ??
River didn't help. But is this a "pot is too large to fold" situation or not?

Final Pot: 9 BB

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is 81/1.75/.3 over 80 hands or so.
Button is 57/9/.74 over the same amount.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are your numbers during this downswing?

Hand 1. meh, I might not 3 bet the flop, then I check call turn and check call river, unless someone gets crazy.

Hand 2. bet the river and call his raise.

Hand 3. I don't like the turn donk bet. I might drop it there thinking he's slowplaying a 7.

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

Hand 1 - Check/fold the flop. If you are ahead, your reverse implied odds are huge.

Hand 2 - Looks ok. Fold on the river is probably ok but I might call

Hand 3 - Fold turn, villians is passive right (can't really tell)?

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

hand #1: i'll c/r a LP bet, probably fold anything else. i hate that T thought [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

hand #2: bet the river and fold a raise. this pot is small enough on the river, as played: calling or folding could be right and not a major leak.

hand #3: i fold the turn. really, by calling that turn donk, i think we've committed ourselves to a showdown at this point (which is 1 street too far.)

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

Grunch:

Hand 1: I check the flop, hoping to check raise a late position bet.

Hand 2: check/call the river.

Hand 3: I probably just fold the turn.

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

Hand 1: Your play is not representing the 8. 3-betting the flop may be ok to prevent draws from getting to the turn cheaply and possibly thinning the field. The T is very scary on the turn, if you put in a bet there and it gets called, you should check the river and consider folding.

Hand 2: Close I think. Many players will bet a busted flush draw here when you show weakness.

Hand 3: When the preflop raiser (who raised from the BB knowing full well it would not knock anyone out) bets the ace on the turn, you are in big trouble. Either you were behind on the flop to QQ/KK/AA/AJ or you're behind now to AK/AQ. Your only hope is that he's semi-bluffing with KQs and that's pretty wishful thinking in my opinion.

The key to get better in these spots is to learn that it's ok to lay down the winning hand sometimes. Obviously you should minimize it as much as possible, but if it looks like there's a 10% chance you have the winning hand when the pot is 5BB and it's going to cost you 2BB to find out - it just isn't worth it. Sometimes you'll get bluffed out, but very often you'll find you were way behind.

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]

What are your numbers during this downswing?

Hand 1. meh, I might not 3 bet the flop, then I check call turn and check call river, unless someone gets crazy.

Hand 2. bet the river and call his raise.

Hand 3. I don't like the turn donk bet. I might drop it there thinking he's slowplaying a 7.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this analysis.

Check/folding the flop in Hand 1 is extremely weak tight. You've got top pair on a paired flop. That's not a marginal hand, it's a good one. That said, i don't mind calling a raise.

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think we've committed ourselves to a showdown at this point (which is 1 street too far.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll skip the hand analysis since the responses OP got are pretty much correct. Have said that I think the above quote is your key takeaway right there - mostly your hands started out as small pots and you had a marginal hand that is not worth the fight (i.e. let it go). Pushing your hands too far will commit you to the pot with an underdog

In the micros, the goal is to value bet your opponents to death when you have good/significant edge.


Just be patient the premium hands will come [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check/folding the flop in Hand 1 is extremely weak tight. You've got top pair on a paired flop. That's not a marginal hand, it's a good one. That said, i don't mind calling a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think extremely weak tight is overstating it a little bit.

That being said, IMO if we are playing this hand that betting into a field of loose players is not the way to go. Button seems kind of aggressive by his PT numbers at least, hopefully it gets checked to him and we can take a crack at getting this heads up.

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

I bet/fold the flop in hand 1. Button seems passive so an LP bet from him could mean he has us beat so a CR doesn't seem good, although he's not that passive since he has a high VP$IP. I guess you could check to see where you're at if you think you're getting 3 or 4 callers if you just bet out.

Hand 2 I bet/fold the river. Against a guy this passive I think you've got to fold if you're checking, but I prefer betting since it's not impossible he'd rep teh ace with nada.

Hand 3 fold the turn.

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

tehox:[ QUOTE ]
Button seems kind of aggressive by his PT numbers at least

[/ QUOTE ]

sharp:[ QUOTE ]
Button seems passive so an LP bet from him could mean he has us beat so a CR doesn't seem good

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm: which is he? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check/folding the flop in Hand 1 is extremely weak tight. You've got top pair on a paired flop. That's not a marginal hand, it's a good one. That said, i don't mind calling a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think extremely weak tight is overstating it a little bit.

That being said, IMO if we are playing this hand that betting into a field of loose players is not the way to go. Button seems kind of aggressive by his PT numbers at least, hopefully it gets checked to him and we can take a crack at getting this heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, it isn't "extremely," I exaggerated. But at least I didn't give the villain multiple PT personalities [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]
tehox:[ QUOTE ]
Button seems kind of aggressive by his PT numbers at least

[/ QUOTE ]

sharp:[ QUOTE ]
Button seems passive so an LP bet from him could mean he has us beat so a CR doesn't seem good

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm: which is he? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your thoughts? Obviously 57/9/.74 is not a maniac, and to be honest I'm not the greatest at interpreting these types of stats, but I think this type of player is betting a lot.

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Button seems kind of aggressive
Button seems passive


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly passive/aggressive.

Really it depends on his %fold numbers. If he has high fold numbers then he may fold enough to offset his high vp$ip and may actually be passive. If his fold numbers are like 15% on every street then he is way overplaying his hands after the flop.

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are your thoughts? Obviously 57/9/.74 is not a maniac, and to be honest I'm not the greatest at interpreting these types of stats, but I think this type of player is betting a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i had no idea that's why i was asking [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Pushing too many marginal edges.
 

[ QUOTE ]

What are your numbers during this downswing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I dove into PT to see, and recognized that I had several forces at play that I'd mentally assigned one lable to. Just been in that "poker malaize" mindset of late.

Overall, its -250bb over 10k or so hands.
However this is split over 2 levels(.5/1 and 1/2), a couple days of examining 25 and 50NL on PP, and a stab at 2/4. So, about half of that is floundering in NL while learning the ropes, and the rest is a slight drubbing at the 2/4 (wasn't ready for it) a quick downswing at 1/2 that dropped me below my comfort zone bankroll wise for that (the losses at NL and 2/4 contributed to magnify that) and a current downsswing ongoing at .5/1 6 max. All of my sample sizes are &lt;15K for any given limit, so not many conclusions to make. Intelletually I don't think I'm on "one big downturn" anymore, but emotionally it feels like it. Gotta work on that. :P

What I did do was 2 weeks ago decided to go back to .5/1 and play no less than 20k hands to see where I stand and try to get my "groove" back. (I just got a dream job last week, so I've got less time to play, so only 2k hands into that now) By groove, I mean the demeanor to be cool in the face of beat after beat. I had it growing, but lost it somehow, in the last month or so. It bothers me how emotional I've become.

I also need to learn to play those whiffed overcards better, I can just feel the chips flowing away there [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] But thats another thread, one that's already posted.


and thanks for the feedback on the hands guys. I'm going to reread all of it a few times. let it sink in.