QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

I apologize if I posted this in the wrong forum. I wasn't sure if this belonged in the micro limits forum or this one since it was a 6 max table.

Anyhoo, I'm looking for comments on my turn fold, should I have just called down? Raise?

SB is a TAG player while BB is TP PF, and LP on the flop.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Should I have raised PF? I'm fresh to 6 max and have basically been basing my PF strategy on the SSH PF Tight game starting hands (mid, late and blinds).

Flop: (3 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

With TP and a gutshot straight draw, I liked my hand and felt it was good for a raise, however SB's 3-bet into me set off some alarms. I thought he might have flopped the straight here, what else would he 3-bet with?

Turn: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero folds.

I'm not sure what BB has here, he could been on a FD or OESD, I chose to fold here fearing I was already beat. Had it been HU I would have called the turn and the river to see a showdown.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

Bump, comments anyone?

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

You're opening the hand, and you have the button, and there are fresh blinds to steal. Easy raise.

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I thought he might have flopped the straight here, what else would he 3-bet with?


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Considering you didnt raise PF, he could have a variety of two pairs here, and feels like charging your possible flush draw. Your raise to BB's bet may look like you want a free card(heh), which rings the bell for SB to protect his hand.

Just my .50 cents...(that i gain when im in SB and you limp QJ)

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

Open-raise preflop, entire hand plays different.

I'd probably call down though.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

lots of draw and 2 pair out there. I think I call down.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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lots of draw and 2 pair out there. I think I call down.

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Pretty obvious to raise if you put them on draws, pretty obvious to get out if you are against two pair. Which is it?

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

Why obvious to get out or raise? I dont like raising because we could very well be behind but i also think the collection of the facts that we can outdraw 2 pair, that he has a draw, pair + draw, orthat hes overplaying something like top pair weaker kicker makes it a call down.

Of course, i'm very willing to re evauluate based on the turn card + action.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

It would take a very strong read to put BOTH opponents on draws here. With that said, your other option leaves you looking like you are drawing against two pair. You have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] so your Q 2 pair draw is good, 3 outs. I think it's safe to say that hitting your gutshot where the 10 is a heart is not a sure way to win.

They might very well already have a straight and you are drawing to 2 Ts.

Any way im looking at it, you have 6 BBs in the pot on the turn and at best have 5 clean outs.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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lots of draw and 2 pair out there. I think I call down.

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Really? Is my hand strong enough to overcall on the turn?

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Any way im looking at it, you have 6 BBs in the pot on the turn and at best have 5 clean outs.

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Which is why I folded, I figured I had to be beat and the pot wasn't big enough to justify continuing with the hand.

Now that I've had some more time to think about the hand, I see that JT could be another likely hand for SB. If he would c/r 2-pair in this spot wouldn't he also c/r with TP OESD? Also given my read on SB as a TAG player and the fact that his play up to this point has been pretty straight foward. It's been about 30-ish hands or so. My gut tells me that he is more likely to bet out with 2-pair and slowplay a straight.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Any way im looking at it, you have 6 BBs in the pot on the turn and at best have 5 clean outs.

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Now that I've had some more time to think about the hand, I see that JT could be another likely hand for SB. If he would c/r 2-pair in this spot wouldn't he also c/r with TP OESD? Also given my read on SB as a TAG player and the fact that his play up to this point has been pretty straight foward. It's been about 30-ish hands or so. My gut tells me that he is more likely to bet out with 2-pair and slowplay a straight.

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Indeed JT is a possible hand, you are very right. My question is what is similiar between the two pair and the TP+OESD that would make him want to check that flop?(keep in mind there was no preflop aggression...he's not checking to the raiser here.)

Very interesting.

Did they show down?

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

My take on a 3 bet on the flop is that someone is generally protecting an overcard. If somebody had a straight, they -might- be protecting against the flush, but more than likely not.

BB could have anything, and SB probably has top pair or 2 pair. I wouldn't put him on a straight.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Any way im looking at it, you have 6 BBs in the pot on the turn and at best have 5 clean outs.


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Which is why I folded, I figured I had to be beat and the pot wasn't big enough to justify continuing with the hand.

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There is 8 BB's in the pot when it is your turn to act not 6, and this is a draw heavy board, getting 8:1 I am calling down here. You have TP, a gutshot and can still outdraw 2 pair

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Any way im looking at it, you have 6 BBs in the pot on the turn and at best have 5 clean outs.


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Which is why I folded, I figured I had to be beat and the pot wasn't big enough to justify continuing with the hand.

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There is 8 BB's in the pot when it is your turn to act not 6, and this is a draw heavy board, getting 8:1 I am calling down here. You have TP, a gutshot and can still outdraw 2 pair

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I realize that there are 8 when it gets to you. But going into the turn there are 6 BBs, and that helps me factor what they might be doing. The top pair is already behind even a KJ, which we cant know what they have without the preflop raise.

It's close, because on the turn you're getting 8:1 while needing 8.2:1, but i honestly think you're behind and losing to BBs river card too many times for this to be profitable any further.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

Blahhhh raise preflop. Call down.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Blahhhh raise preflop. Call down.

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Aye, this thread seems MUBSy to me, is a mubsy a word? Can it be from now on?

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Blahhhh raise preflop. Call down.

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Aye, this thread seems MUBSy to me, is a mubsy a word? Can it be from now on?

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If i can figure out what it means.....

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Blahhhh raise preflop. Call down.

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Surely you know better than to give advice without explaining yourself? On this standard, that's about as good of an argument as "fold pre." to me.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Blahhhh raise preflop. Call down.

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Aye, this thread seems MUBSy to me, is a mubsy a word? Can it be from now on?

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If i can figure out what it means.....

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MUBS = Monster Under the Bed Syndrome.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

Ok, well this thread seems WEBOSAAINWI to me.

(we're either behind or slightly ahead and it's not worth it.)

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

This is an easy pf raise.

I hate the fold. 3-betting is JT and 9T plenty of times. I definatly call down.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

oh cool, I think this was me....wow, one of the hands I played in was posted...I'll need to check my hand histories when I get home to be sure as that i guess that it is quite possible I played in a hand that looked alot like this

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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This is an easy pf raise.

I hate the fold. 3-betting is JT and 9T plenty of times. I definatly call down.

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You say that like it's a good thing. We've outlined that you'd be behind in those circumstances, not to mention forced into a two pair crying call if you hit your Q.

The outs vs. the money in the pot, you are missing the odds to call by .2, but it's a marginal situation that you are summing into an "easy call down.", without apparent reasoning to me.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

Its an easy call down because while we may be missing out on the odds by .2 when we are behind, we are ahead often enough to easily make up for it.

I agree with everyone who says raise pre and calldown and think it should be pretty close to standard.

And just for fun: Your SB Tag read means very little after 30 hands [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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Did they show down?

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SB showed down QJo, and BB had Tx.

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And just for fun: Your SB Tag read means very little after 30 hands

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True, but it's all I've got at this point, and with BB sticking around to play, I just couldn't see that I had the best hand at the moment. Obviously I was wrong, but had this been HU without BB, this would be an easy call down for me.

Re: QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board
 

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SB is a TAG player while BB is TP PF

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Im sure its already been said but since your reads are that the SB and BB are fairly tight that gives you all the more reason to try and steal the blinds..although I wouldnt even look at there stats or reads with QJo on the button.