6max, hows this turn play?
 

Very new to 6 max, keep that in mind.

No read on villian here, only had 5 hands with him.

On the flop I'm not sure if he is betting the K or not, I was nervous about raising the flop. Half the time the donks have the K and half the time they have the 9 or 7.

Do I need to make a decision on the flop either to raise or fold?

When the A fell on the turn I thought I could raise here, he *might* fold and if he just calls I can check the river.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

I would probably just call down barring a truly awful card like the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] maybe. I don't like the raise at all. He'll never fold a hand better than jacks 4-handed.

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably just call down barring a truly awful card like the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] maybe. I don't like the raise at all. He'll never fold a hand better than jacks 4-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

This situation is really quite simple. We raise if...

1) He will fold a better hand. Keep in mind that he doesn't have to fold anywere near 100% of the time to make it correct.

2) He will fold a hand that he shouldn't if he knew what we held. For example if he would fold a flush draw to a turn raise (not going to happen but that is an example here) then it begins to make more sense.

3) It is for value. Well it wasn't for value in this case since we checked behind on the river.

4) He will give up on a bricked river if he was bluffing or semi-bluffing the whole way. This is a bad assumption to make against a typical player. When in doubt, assume that default players will bluff too much. So against better players you have to get that raise in on the turn. Against poor players who will bet busted draws everytime, you can just call them down.

Brad

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

my thought was, if there is *some* chance he might fold and he doesn't 3-bet me on the turn, which a turn raise will freeze up a LOT of people and he'll check the river to me, I get to see the river at the same price as if I called down.

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
my thought was, if there is *some* chance he might fold and he doesn't 3-bet me on the turn, which a turn raise will freeze up a LOT of people and he'll check the river to me, I get to see the river at the same price as if I called down.

[/ QUOTE ]
well that's the thing - you shouldn't be calling down here without a very solid read.

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well that's the thing - you shouldn't be calling down here without a very solid read.

[/ QUOTE ]

And so I asked in my post, should I be making a decision on the flop to fold or raise?

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

I would've raised the flop.

If he 3bets then bets out on the turn, then you're pretty much screwed and can safely fold.

1 SB finds out enough info to save you 2 BB.

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would've raised the flop.

If he 3bets then bets out on the turn, then you're pretty much screwed and can safely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

His flop bet froze ME up and I just called, I didn't expect it and wasn't sure where I stood.

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
His flop bet froze ME up and I just called, I didn't expect it and wasn't sure where I stood.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the intent. He could've been doing it with a Flush Draw, a Straight Draw, or even bottom pair.

With a King or better, he would've been much more likely to Check-Raise.

The donk bet heads-up on a flop like that usually means "I have a hand, but not a really strong one".

With multiple people in the hand, it usually means "I have a weak King".

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The donk bet heads-up on a flop like that usually means "I have a hand, but not a really strong one".

[/ QUOTE ]

because they are too chicken to c/r with 2nd or 3rd pair here?

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
because they are too chicken to c/r with 2nd or 3rd pair here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly

A check-raise usually indicates a stronger hand than a donk bet, but not always.

A donk bet, however, rarely indicates a really strong hand.

People are perverse in that they bet their medium-weak hands and try to get all fancy with their strong ones.

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

Grunch...

Definitely raise that flop. Probably fold to a 3-bet.

A little weak? Maybe so... but playing an unknown like this, I gotta give him credit for either the King or the Ace (Edit: when he bets out on the turn after our flop raise).

I've also found it pretty hard to get someone to fold if they caught a piece of the flop (especially something like a king). But of course, this could have a lot to do with my own aggression.

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When the A fell on the turn I thought I could raise here, he *might* fold and if he just calls I can check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he has the king your idea to make him fold might work. If he's betting the flush draw he won't fold though.

I'd probably rather raise the flop and fold to a 3 bet. It's cheaper and it's a rare player who will three bet middle pair or a flush draw. You could just get called by a weak King though. Can't tell how the guys going to play without getting to know him. Then if he donk bets the turn I'd fold. If he checks, I'd check too. You are repping a King afraid of a checkraise. On the river, he won't bet with a busted flush draw, but he might bet with a weak King thinking you were on a flush draw. He also might bet with middle pair, so you might have to look him up.

I don't know. But on the flop, I would either fold or raise, and I'd probably opt for the raise and see what happens. If you decide to call down, you'll probably save half a bet doing this, and if you get three bet, you can drop the hand.

Re: 6max, hows this turn play?
 

I like this play if villain is competent. You might very well fold out a K and you charge the hell out of a flush draw. Villain will seldom reraise and if he does you can confidently fold.

If villain is passive post-flop, however, this is not the kind of opponent you want to play back at.