Was this game crooked?
 

Hi there,

I'm a little upset with myself right now, not because I lost, but because I think I got myself into a crooked game. Let me describe what happened:

I'm at a hotel, and I was in the hot tub, talking with a few people who were passing through as well. We were talking about tourist spots in the Dakotas, and the Black hills, then we got into discussions about card games. I asked them if they play hold 'em, and they did. One of the guys deals a fake casino, where he says he picked up a lot of stuff from low-limit players. Well, I go up to my room, change, grab some cards and money. The buy-in was only $10, but this is more important than just the money here. I show up, and there are only two of the three going to play, and they brought their own deck. I asked if we were playing with cuts (cuts can slow the action). The first few hands I get junk. One hand, I got KJ, and the guy raised, so I decided, that even three handed the gap concept dictates I fold. I was right, because he was betting pocket tens. We get to one hand, where I had a Q9, and it was raised the minimum by the dealer, the small blind called, and I called (getting 5-to-1 odds on my money). The flop comes J-2-5. The first guy checks, so I decide a probe bet is in order, and fire $1 into the pot ($3). I get one call and a fold. The turn brings a T, so now I have an open ended straight draw, so I semi-bluff $2, and the guy pushes all in for his $3. Getting 9-to-1 odds on my money and about 5-to-1 on my money, I make the call, and he flips up AKo. Now I can win with a K, 8, or 9 (my Q gives him Broadway). I river an 8, and scoop the pot.

I'm playing heads up with this guy, get 77, raise, and he folds. Two hands later, I get QQ. I raise $2, he reluctantly calls. The flop comes A-K-Q, two clubs. Heads up, I've got a monster. I bet another $2 (trying to make it look as if I'm stealing), he jokes with his buddy, and then calls. The turn is a Tc. This is where I made the biggest mistake, because I started to panic that someone with two clubs or a J has me beat. I think what are the odds he has that, what are the odds he'd fold to an all-in, and all the other important factors (knowing that I have a 10 out redraw if I'm behind to a straight or flush). I push all-in, and he calls. He turns over JT. Is it likely that we'd have these two hands, and that we'd both flop monsters? I should have proceeded with caution on the turn, but I figured that even heads up I'm probably still ahead, and he probably has maybe a pair or two. The river bricks out on me as he delivers a 9. I shake his hand (as is customary), and we talk for a few minutes, before they decide to head back to their room. Before leaving the offer me a "beer for the road", which I decline. I eavesdrop a little on their room, and they were discussing my play with the open-ended straight. I leave, in fear of one of them opening their door, and catch me in the act.

All in all, these guys were nice guys. I just can't help but think that that last hand (dealt by the other guy) was a little bit more than coincidental.

So, I'm asking you if you think this game was crooked. If so, why? If not, why? If not, then let me know how I could I have played that last hand differently, or was I just destined to lose all of my money? Should I have gotten my money in on the flop, not giving him a chance to draw to a J, T, or club, had he had that kind of hand? Anyway, just send me you thoughts, and I thank you very much.

RGS

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

I may be wrong, but I think you'll get flamed for this post. I hope I'm wrong because you are asking a sincere question and deserve sincere answers.

First off, it's amazingly unlikely that 3 (or 2) guys are gonna work to scam you outta $10.

With the last hand, monster vs. monster happens all the time. But if the deck was setup to take you down, there wouldn't have been such a scare card on the turn. The flop would have come Q98, with a 2 and 3 on the turn and river, neither completing a flush.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

With all due respect, you just wasted a lot of peoples time with a stupid post. No, the game was not crooked. What at all is crooked? You flop trips when a straight was there and he had it. So what? Next time you get dealt pocket Q's and someone has pocket A's and you get busted are you going to complain too?

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

it's fricken $10!!

bad all in on the turn w/ QQ

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With all due respect, you just wasted a lot of peoples time with a stupid post. No, the game was not crooked. What at all is crooked? You flop trips when a straight was there and he had it. So what? Next time you get dealt pocket Q's and someone has pocket A's and you get busted are you going to complain too?

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't waste anyone's time. if you feel your time has been wasted, try the following:

1) don't read posts that you feel will be a waste of your valuable time.

2) don't take up your valuable time responding in an off-topic manner to posts that you have already determined to be a waste of your time.

thank you,
bk

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

An elaborate scam for 10 bucks, I don't think so.
They even offered you a beer. That's gotta be worth 3 bucks or so. What's the point in cheating someone out of $10.00 if you are going to offer them a beer.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

[ QUOTE ]
An elaborate scam for 10 bucks, I don't think so.
They even offered you a beer. That's gotta be worth 3 bucks or so. What's the point in cheating someone out of $10.00 if you are going to offer them a beer.

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo. you weren't scammed. just bad luck.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

[ QUOTE ]
One hand, I got KJ, and the guy raised, so I decided, that even three handed the gap concept dictates I fold. I was right, because he was betting pocket tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly have no idea what poker is about.

I don't mean to be rude, but you really don't understand the game.

First of all, this is a reraise (KJ).

Secondly, what if he had KT? It doesn't matter what he had. If you don't understand this, then start reading some older posts.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

No I don't think they were hustling you but I also don't think it's a problem for you to be suspicious. You should however, ask for a cut instead of complaining after you lost.

I was riding a train in Ontario once, and two 17yr old kids across the aisle whip out some chips and cards and start talking pretty loud about how much fun texas hold'em is. I knew the guy sitting facing them from Alberta, and he's never even heard of hold'em but he's interested. The friends convince him that he has to play for money but he gets them down to $10. A few hands in, one guy goes all in on the flop with a flush draw and the second calls with middle pair. No improvement and its now a 2:1 chip ratio against the Albertan. Now the wheels are spinning here.. did they plan to just dump chips to one or the other then have the chip leader easily crush the sucker? Do they rig the deck (no cuts)?

I soon decided by the caliber of the kid's play that this was no hustle, but I guess it could easily have been. What was a little strange was that the Albertan never even thought about it. Just played, eventually lost his $10, and skipped on the tab when he changed trains in Toronto.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

First off, it's not that I lost the money. The principle was that if it were a rigged hand, I didn't see it coming. If it's a bad beat, so what, that's poker. I can take that. I just got this little inkling, this instinct that they were trying something, but I probably am wrong. I sorry to "waste time", I just didn't know where to ask about this, and I thought that some people in a "theory" forum might know a little about scam games. Thanks for all your advice, and have a good one.

RGS

P.S. I folded the KJ because I decided I'd play tight to see how these guys play, and what hands they'll check/raise/fold/call with. Later in the game, I would have made a play with it.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

Nope. A previous poster nailed it when he said "Why would they swindle $10 out of you and then offer you a beer?" If this was a hustle they would have offered you a chance to get even at double the stakes. Ya just don't hustle people for $10 and be done with it.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

there's nothing about your story that brings up even a hint of a scam?

even as you left they were talking about your hand, rather than talking about how much of a sucker you are.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

How do I know the post is a waste of my time until I'm done reading it? I think I just blew your mind.....

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

Definitely crooked. These scam artists make a killing this way. With three of them working most nights you figure they find some sap like you at least 200 times a year. At 10 bucks a pop thats like 2000/year for just three of them to split! After travel and other expenses they each only have to pony up like 50K each to live this amazing lifestyle.

Oh, and after playing a million hands of holdem or so, i can tell you i have never seen someone flop a set while the other flopped a straight. Imagine that, without the board pairing on 5th st. Sheesh.

You should go to the authorities and tell them all about this. Maybe they can still track them down. I expect but cannot be sure that they will offer you immunity for violating gambling laws in exchange for your testimony against these felons. If they don't I am sure at least they will offer you a reduced penalty.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

You are a funny guy

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

How is this related to "Poker Theory"?

Yes, every time you have a good hand and it's beaten by a better hand, the game is crooked. This happens often online. You've been warned.

In other news....

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

Let me see if I've got this right....a three handed game with two strangers you happened to meet and they bring their own deck? I know its only $10, but lets skip the cut so we can get in more hands?

Put one hand on your zippper ond the other on your wallet.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me see if I've got this right....a three handed game with two strangers you happened to meet and they bring their own deck? I know its only $10, but lets skip the cut so we can get in more hands?

Put one hand on your zippper ond the other on your wallet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is not a scam, but what the hell is up with the no cut? It takes, what, 2 seconds?

-ptmusic

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two hands later, I get QQ. I raise $2, he reluctantly calls. The flop comes A-K-Q, two clubs. Heads up, I've got a monster. I bet another $2 (trying to make it look as if I'm stealing), he jokes with his buddy, and then calls. The turn is a Tc. This is where I made the biggest mistake, because I started to panic that someone with two clubs or a J has me beat. I think what are the odds he has that, what are the odds he'd fold to an all-in, and all the other important factors (knowing that I have a 10 out redraw if I'm behind to a straight or flush). I push all-in, and he calls. He turns over JT. Is it likely that we'd have these two hands, and that we'd both flop monsters?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the mid-point of my -150BB slide playing 3/6 and 5/10 this month, I had QQ in the BB against a player on the button who coldcalled a CO openraise with JTo...and the flop came AKQ.

The CO folded the turn, but I never improved. It wasn't pleasant.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

Plenty of people have already answered about whether you were scammed or not and agree that it is unlikely. I was scammed out of $1200.00 bucks once. Not in a poker game but it did involve a pretty girl. I was far more pissed about how gullible I was than over loosing the money. Whether you were scammed or not you learned a valuable lesson for 10 bucks. When it comes to money, Trust No One. If a situation feels the least bit wrong, get the heck out of there.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

less than 24 hours ago I was in the following hand: I played KQ, flop came KQT with two hearts. So I have top two pair on a scary board. I bet it, the mouse to my left RAISED for the first time ever, and he was reraised. I called. The flop was a Q, filling me with queens full of kings. After incredible action, my queens full of kings beat the player to my left who had played AJ and flopped a straight, and the next player who played QT and also filled up on the turn. Coincidence? Yes but it happens. The very next hand I played AT and felt good about the flop of A-T-5 until my two pair lost to the other guys pocket fives. It happens.

Here\'s a good one.
 

My hand A9s. Friend at my dining room table KK.
(We went all-in on the flop in a 3-handed game)

Flop: A9K. Turn: 9. River: 9. HELLO.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

I vote no simply because nobody in their right mind would bother to "crook" you out of just $10 - simply isn't worth the time.
I give you 100:1 that you were beat fair and square.
Besides man, it's $10, why such a big deal?

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

When you agree to no cuts you're basically saying, the money means so little to me I don't care if I get cheated.

PairTheBoard

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

I dont believe it was crooked..just my 2 cents

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

NO, but you get taken on half theses online poker sites

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

What does this have to do with poker theory?

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

[ QUOTE ]
NO, but you get taken on half theses online poker sites

[/ QUOTE ]

By the players who are better than you? You most certainly do!

To the OP, no, your game sounds clean. These things happen - better luck next time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

ya seriously

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do I know the post is a waste of my time until I'm done reading it? I think I just blew your mind.....

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, you sure showed me up

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

Definatly not...

for instance.. he reluctantly called... i think he'd have less fear in a stacked deck...

you bet two bucks to make it LOOK like you were trying to steal....

you pushed all in thinking you were beat.... out of fear that you were beat.... and you were beat...

they talked about the way you played your set and his straight or whatever...

I do that all the time, because it amazes me how many people will slow play a hand and then go all in once they know its beat
maybe they were discussing how he should have played it stronger in case you had clubs...

they're poker people they cant play a game and then not talk about it for hours and hours...

ten bucks...
the price would have gone up if they were cheating you...

it may have started at ten bucks, but soon it'd been 50
then 100
then they'd start taking your money.....

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

I said No his game did not sound crooked, however, I added a lil comment about some of the online sites that are corrupt, that maybe he should beware a lil online!!?? I meet better players and others, What hit a nerve? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] YOUR PROBLEM, keep it!

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

I just wanted to add this...

Just because you probably weren't getting scammed here doesn't mean the next time you feel that way you aren't getting scammed..

use your gut instinct... theres always a game somewhere if you have the heebeejeebees about it... get out... get out politely...

I've been in so many games where some guy gets drunk and if you sand bag him... he's gonna pop up off the table with a knife in his hand...

these are other vibes you gotta worry about...
Any bad feelings about a game... leave... either way if you have a bad feeling you can't play your A game...

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2203/hottub12kf.th.jpg

Something funny was definitely going on, but I don't think it was the cards.

Actually, in all honesty, you didn't get hustled. I can say that with 99.9% certainty.

The two main pieces of evidence are:

1) They offered 30% of their profits back to you in the form of beer.
2) Scare card on the turn

Well written post. You obviously are trying hard to learn about the game, and you will do well. You should probably stop watching so many old westerns, though.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

The best thing about posts like that of the OP are these absolutely hilarious responses.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

A little paranoid aren't we? If it was a crooked game, it would've been for more than just 10 bucks, you out drew the other guy that one time. Also, wouldn't they ask you to play again if it was crooked? Finally, you heard two guys discussing the hand that knocked one of them out, something I do all the time. Doesn't sound like anything is off.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

I wouldn't shut the hell up until there was some cutting going on.

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

Howdy fellas,

I've had a few days to think it over and, first, I'm sorry that this isn't poker theory. I thought it might be, I wasn't completely sure, but I thought theory would be a main part of the post. I thank you all (even the those were particularly rude, or sarcastic). Second, I want to make this clear:

IT IS NOT THE BAD BEAT, OR THE MONEY I WAS WORRIED ABOUT!

I get bad beats all the time (I'm sure you all do, too.), and I'll spare you my volumes of stories. The cash wasn't much, but it isn't something I like losing, either. I don't have a lot of money (a bankroll of about $400 live and $300 online), so I can't be throwing Hamiltons around like they're confetti. At the time I wrote the post, my main concern was that I was scammed. Since that, I have thought that the GAME was not fixed. However, I would not rule out the notion that the guy was getting tired, and decided to end the game by stacking the deck for that ONE HAND. Even that seems unlikely, though. I don't know, and perhaps I'll never know. But, I did learn a lesson, and that is to play with cuts. I seem to learn these big lessons cheaply. Just ask, and I'll tell you the story about how I learned that even drunks catch cards.

Anyhow, I did not mean this to get as big as it has. I'm not trying to make a "big deal" about this, I was merely looking for a few opinions. Some opinions were very helpful, and some were people showing off how much of a comedian they could be. ("Okay, so Sklansky, Malmuth, and Buddha walk into a cardroom...and Buddha says he doesn't believe in good or bad cards!") I like to try to be funny, too! I've had worse beats, but accept it. That's part of the game. This time, however, I just got a gut feeling about the hand, and something just didn't seem right. It just seemed a little too perfect.

Well, that's my gig. What have you?

RGS

P.S. Had this happened in a cardroom, or with people I know, a scam would never have crossed my mind, except for the grounds of a small joke.

P.P.S. I hate westerns. They're too hokey!

Re: Was this game crooked?
 

Is this post a joke? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

A possible explanation?
 

There is one thing I'm surprised no one has mentioned. It is possible that these three were just honing their skills at this low level for future suckers, just testing the waters, so to speak, for a career making money off the hold'em craze. The part about the cutting is interesting, as someone earlier pointed out, why not? This is just a theory (ok, you did put it in that category) of what could possibly have taken place. I'm glad you made the post because a lot of beginners surely have similar suspicions. In all liklihood, it was not a scam. But isn't it a logical possiblity that they could have been training for the future? Then the beer offered fits in a little better under this scenario. Tell me why this is a bad theory.