Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

For those who play the 33s and lower....

Maybe I'm the only one, but is anyone else choosing to bluff in the early game? Everyone here talks about tight play here early, and its usually the best route.

However, sometimes you can limp into a pot with one or 2 early callers and either:

-Call early weak bets, like 20-30% pot bets, to take the pot away on the turn
-Make small bets after everyone has checked, and then make a large bet after the field has checked again on the turn, and take the pot.

There are other specific situations, but it seems that the lesser, non-maniac players, fall into betting patterns that often gives away the fact that they have a weak hand, and that they can be pushed off of it.

Obviously, there's other times when a player calls your raises, and larger bets, and there's no point in trying to push a maniac off of a hand (in this case, you're usually way ahead - point being, not a place to bluff).

Sometimes, I'm wrong, and down to 650 chips in Level 1 or 2, but usually I can get my chips to 900-1000 and have a far better chance of making the money.

Anyone else do this at 33s (Party for me) and below, or is everyone doing the strict ABC thing?

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

I also like to make these plays to push players off hands but the problem with it is that they might "just call." At this early stage of the game you don't have enough info about your opponents to know if they will "just call" or if they are strong enough to lay it down. This is why we recommend tight play early.

Indy

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

If I had to blame one thing for my poor performance this past week, I'd blame exactly what you just said.

I used to consider myself disciplined. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

I can't possibly play 8 tables and still gain enough information to make reads on who is capable of being bluffed off a hand, and who is not. And, since most of the players can't, it doesn't make sense for me to bluff.

I would definitely try to make some plays like you describe if I were playing one table at a time.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

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Call early weak bets, like 20-30% pot bets, to take the pot away on the turn

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i think this might be the problem with your argument, as folks in the 11s/22s (and i imagine 33s) will not fold if they feel that they have a hand. it doesn't have to be the nuts, but they will call down a ton.

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fall into betting patterns that often gives away the fact that they have a weak hand

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the thing about this is that people love to trap in these games. they think c/c and then c/r'ing is the most novel thing since sliced bread, so be careful assuming you're way ahead. everything gets slowplayed.

i don't mean to be so conservative about all this, but there's really no need to deviate from the plan too much. bluff more around the bubble, steal people's blinds as the tighties try to get ITM, etc etc.

low limit STTs are beatable with a mechanical, formulaic approach -- why FPS it up? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

yea, I'd rather 10-table then squeeze out every little pot I can pick up. Better for the ole hourly rate.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

[ QUOTE ]
low limit STTs are beatable with a mechanical, formulaic approach -- why FPS it up? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.

that, combined with what the other guy said about making those types of reads while multitabling, is reason enough for me to pretty much stick to ABC play.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

Alright, I agree with the multi-tabling argument fully.

I'm just starting to play these tables with some focus, so I have only been playing like 1 or 2 at a time. I guess when you add more in, you may not have these reads.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

Like most things, it all depends.

I usually find myself doing things like when I am running good, convinced that I am gods gift and can run over the table with fancy plays like this. Under perfect circumstances, these plays will work well. Reads (PT data) are very important. Early on, how good of a read can you really have? Early on, is it worth it to risk almost a quarter of your stack to pickup even 200 chips? I say no.

In general, I don't feel it is worth the risk early on in a 800 chip tourney. In fact, I feel that I find myself trapping early on more then bluffing early on to catch people trying to do these very moves. Especially if we are talking about 1 or 2 opponents. Not that I trap every time, just that I trap way more then I bluff in the early stages.

The difference between having ~1000 chips versus ~800 chips in the early stages in insignificant to me. The difference between having ~700 when 25/50 comes around versus ~500 is huge to me.

BigDave

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

I was just going to post something like this! I was wondering what bluffs people find profitable.

What I've found to be most profitable is to raise from late position, and follow up with a continuation bet if checked to. Pretty standard, but works very well.

I've tried going all-in when 3 or 4 people have limped in at say about 10xBB, and this has worked so-so. The problem is sometimes people will limp in with AK or KK type hands, which is stupid, but that's what they do. I don't know if this happens enough to make my bluff unprofitable though, because I don't have a large enough sample (by about 5 orders of magnitude).

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

Interesting. I'm the opposite. I don't trap early on (unless I've got something like quads) but will bet any good hand. I'll also bluff a lot if I'm the first one in and only 1 or 2 opponents (usually half pot). I find the difference between 800 and 1000 to be very important. It gives me more time if I get a cold string of cards.

When it gets to the end, then I'll start trapping (as well as bluffing). Early on I want someone to pay through the nose if they're going to call with their gut-shot straight draw (which they will).

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

I've found exactly the same thing you're saying to be true. It's just amazing what people will call bit bets (like all-in) with. Gut-shots. 2nd or 3rd pair in early levels. Amazing.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

it's a beautiful thing man. pays the rent [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't possibly play 8 tables and still gain enough information to make reads on who is capable of being bluffed off a hand, and who is not.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get Poker Ace HUD

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't possibly play 8 tables and still gain enough information to make reads on who is capable of being bluffed off a hand, and who is not.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get Poker Ace HUD

[/ QUOTE ]

dont get me wrong, i use pokerace and think its great, but if you think that youre gaining reliable information which you can use to make bluffs for all your chips (which would be necessary considering the resulting pot size of the OPs hypotheticals), youre just wrong. we're talking about the early levels of an SNG here. so maybe, tops, you'll have 20 hands on a villian? no way is that information reliable enough for you to make any decisions based on it.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

I like the general idea, though I wouldn't overdo it. Try and choose your targets well. You may not see enough hands to make an ironclad read, but you'll frequently enough to get some kind of clue, and try following it. The fact that SNG's are beatable by ABC poker doesn't mean that it's necessarily the best way to do it, and thinking about how to branch out is always a good thing.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

1-Dominate at Heads up SNGs where the entry fee is over $100

2-Dominate at Omaha8 SNGs where the buy-ins are over $55

3-Return to WSOP for $10.50 via sattelites like in '05

4-Make final table at least once of big pokerstars sunday tourney (which I will begin playing every week in 06)

Indy

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

You need to go down the block, and take a right. You're hitched to the wrong post.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

I realized that I double posted as soon as I did that. But of course, I knew some smart ass would point it out.

Indy

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

It's pretty much automatic for me (at the $20's) that if we're down to 5 handed or less, and the SB completes to me in the BB, I push with almost any 2 - I get called about 5% of the time, so if you're at 50-100 or higher, its free money.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

Happy to oblige. Merry Christmas. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (btw, u can edit posts)

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

My FPS and bluff factor are the two biggest leaks I have in the low limit SNGs

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

Some of the things mentioned in these posts aren't actually bluffs. Open-raising from late postion and then firing a CB bet isn't a true bluff. Pushing from the BB when the SB completes also isn't a true bluff because you normally have +EV when you do it.

A true bluff is a bet with absolutely nothing against a player who may actually have a hand and getting him to lay it down. In order for this to work, one of two things has to happen....

1) You either have to know that Villain is a weak/tight player or is playing with scared money and will be afraid to get in large pots.

2) In order to bluff correctly, you have to represent some sort of hand and, more importantly, Villain has to be just good enough to be able to put you on the hand you are trying to represent.

At low levels, #1 might be true, #2 rarely is.

In order to run a successful bluff, your betting pattern should make sense. Too many times at low levels, you'll see a check flop, check, turn, river push and you know its a bluff. This also happens quite often when weaker players miss their draws and think they can just bluff by betting a huge amount of chips.

I'd be extremely careful about bluffing early in low limit SnG's.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

I do it too...and it usually works several times in a row...and then while I'm patting myself on the back and feeding my FPS...it FAILS to work MANY TIMES IN A ROW....

Its used to be one of my bigger leaks and causes of lost tourneys early or late.

Re: Sng\'s and Bluffing
 

I believe bluffing in SNGs is all situational. I will throw out a 1/2 pot bet in the first couple of rounds when the flop likely has missed everyone.

Else I wait until the dust has cleared prior to considering bluffing. Bluffing is an important skill, but one to reserve for the middle stages IMO.