Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

The Aladdin poker room is now under new management. Nick Gullo is now heading up Poker operations at the Aladdin. Nick brings 40+ years of casino, marketing, and management experience with him to the table. He was previously the dayshift poker room manager at the Aladdin. Congratulations to him on the promotion.

They are now running 5/10 Limit Holdem with and without kills as a regular game. I heard the past week or so as many as 3 tables were running at a time.

The best part: The rake is only 5% to $4 max vs the regular 10% rake that all the other casinos have.

This is the only house to spread 5/10 that I am aware of. I know others will spread it once in a great while, but this is now going to be a regular game as long as there are players willing to play.

Also, I heard they are adding 2am tourneys for those night owls looking for some gambling late at night.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

Excellent news! $5/10 is one popular limit Vegas has been missing, and I'm happy to see it's here. I get a steady stream of inquiries about this limit. I hope Aladdin can keep this game going consistently.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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I hope Aladdin can keep this game going consistently.

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That is up to the players. If the players want to play, there will be games available. If no one wants to play when the games are open, there isn't much you can do. I'm sure it will survive though. It's a higher limit, but not too high for normal gambling tourists to play.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

Horrible choice for a limit. There is a reason why 5/10 isn't spread commonly in Vegas or LA... no action. Unless your room is trying something origional (such as using $2.50 chips) the game will most likely be a dud.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Horrible choice for a limit. There is a reason why 5/10 isn't spread commonly in Vegas or LA... no action.

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You're probably right TT; I'm sure there is a reason the game isn't spready anywhere else in Vegas. But, I do know that the game is spread successfully in card rooms outside of Vegas. As such, there is a demand from those players who play this limit at their local B&M and want to play it in Vegas (regardless of whether we think there is action).

There may be enough demand for at least one poker room to offer this game regularly. People will play it, especially if there is no $4/8 available.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

Well 3/6 is the normal low limit game spread there. Trying to spread 3/6 and 4/8 side by side does not work. It's been tried and tried. 3/6 and 5/10 on the other hand has not been tried very recently to my knowledge.

TT speaks of the 5/10 being tight with no action. Have you seen the state of the 1/2 NL games in this town lately? Any given day of the week you may and probably will have $15 average pots with half the players all waiting for aces and kings before they'll play. 2/5 NL is drying up slowly but surely. Most of the rooms that ran 3 or 4 at a time can barely get 1 or 2 off the ground now.

Players are slowly reverting back to limit. Those are the ones who played limit first and tried NL. The new players just trying NL before ever playing limit is a completely different story. Most of those players see NL as just another gambling/casino game like BJ or craps.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Horrible choice for a limit. There is a reason why 5/10 isn't spread commonly in Vegas or LA... no action. Unless your room is trying something origional (such as using $2.50 chips) the game will most likely be a dud.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I have to agree that a 5/10 structure generally tends to kill the action in a game, although Photoc tells me that the games were rockin' and rollin'. This is a good thing, since I'd not care to see baby NL games take over the poker world.

The one 5/10 game spread in my area (at the Taj in Atlantic City) is a horrible, rock-strewn game.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Players are slowly reverting back to limit. Those are the ones who played limit first and tried NL. The new players just trying NL before ever playing limit is a completely different story. Most of those players see NL as just another gambling/casino game like BJ or craps.

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I see the opposite happening in Atlantic City. 1/2 NL is one of the most popular games in town. The players seem to be the new types though that you talk of (many have little grasp of NL strategy). Meanwhile it seems the 10/20 limit games at Borgata are not as loose as they used to be, as I think the loose players are picking NL.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

The artist formerly know as luv2drivett and drew on tilt are right.

The 5-10 may start out wild as a goose but the single bet structure will eventually kill the action.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

I would think you would want to spread 3/6 & 6/12 or 4/8 & 6/12 instead of 5/10. Then after 6/12 jump up to 10/20.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

There are some of us who like $5 & $10. For al the crap I hear about yhere not being action in a $5 & $10 that has not been my experience. Sometimes there is great action sometimes there isn't jsut tlike the $3-$6 game.

I have been playing in the weekly $5 & $10 w/ full kill game at the Aladdin and I find it far more enjoyable then playing $4 & $8

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

I like the $5/$10 also. But you just don't get the fish gleefully calling with nothing simply for the chance to push those two big stack of eight chips each in, versus tossing in a couple of red chips.

The small pile of red chip pots don't look as large to the fish as the massive mounds of mixed chips that occur in $6/$12. But $5/$10 does have the advantage, keeping track of pot size seems to be easier.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

How bout 2 dollar chips?

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

I have seen changing the chip demonination really liven up dead game before. Adding a kill pot changes things also.

The problem is, in casino you are pretty much tied to the standard $1-$5-$25-$100 chip structure. You don't see $2 and $3 chips much except in rooms devoted exclusively to poker. Sure casinos have some .50 and $2.50 chips around for 3:2 BJ payoffs. They probably wouldn't want to special order "odd" amount chip in the quantities needed to keep games running. They complain enough about having to have a special set of chips for the roulette tables.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

In today's market a 5-10 should do just fine. The game will have less action than a 6-12 in the same spot would have had, but it can still have plenty of action. In the past in markets where 5-10 has thrived there have always been a large enough supply of inexperienced players to go around. As a market matures and the iniexperienced palyers have either become experienced or quit poker the 5-10 is the first game to dry up because of the chip structure. With the growth in poker a 5-10 in Veas should thrive; I still wouldn't spread it because a 6-12 would do better and I liek to spread games that makes it easier to promote players to higher limits.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

[ QUOTE ]
TT speaks of the 5/10 being tight with no action. Have you seen the state of the 1/2 NL games in this town lately? Any given day of the week you may and probably will have $15 average pots with half the players all waiting for aces and kings before they'll play. 2/5 NL is drying up slowly but surely. Most of the rooms that ran 3 or 4 at a time can barely get 1 or 2 off the ground now.

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SoCal is still growing but the somewhat larger fixed buy games ($200 to $500 range) are getting tighter and I expect this trend to continue. In a year or two I expect to revert to 20/40 (and hopefully 40/80) limit holdem as my main games. Ridiculously loose NL play will get increasingly punished as you won't often see five loose players pushing chips back and forth as we have in the past.

Blood in the water always attracts sharks, and the low limit low limit players are starting to bleed too fast.

But the real little games still look pretty loose. Hawaiian Gardens had thirteen $20 fixed buy (1-1 blinds) and seven $40 fixed buy (1-2 blinds) in the bar area and it's mostly kids under 25. And this is with about three to five buy-ins per hour coming off the table in drops! The floorperson said the kids actually do what they are told when she has to make a decision. I guess the new generation listens to adults [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

As long as 2-4, 3-6, 4-8 and especially any of these games with a kill or half kill are spread, 6-12 will NOT go and you'll be lucky to get a 5-10.

Aladdin might successfully get 5-10 on a regular basis only if they totally don't spread 4-8 anymore, just keeping it 3-6 and 5-10, but they'll never get 5-10 and 6-12 both going here in vegas, just won't happen.

There needs to be a reasonable jump in stakes between games, if you keep them too close together, the smaller games will always choke off the supply of players to the larger games, because players tend to "round down" rather than up, particularly newer ones.

al

one more thing about 5-10 structure
 

The game never had any trouble going in atlantic city. I believe the fact that 5-10 is the first "red chip" game makes it more appealing than the "chip structure" might indicate (to those people who are west coast only or vegas only players, who haven't played on the east coast). Trop and Taj wouldn't have had SO many 5-10 games when I used to live out there if the chip structure was SO TERRIBLE. It should be noted tho that 4-8 didn't exist back then AT ALL, it was 2-4, 3-6, 5-10, 10-20, 20-40 for limit hold'em. 15-30 structures basically only existed for stud games ($2 ante, $5 bring-in).

al

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

I always felt that keeping track of pot size was equal in all limit games since I count bets not chips.

I also saw no lack of action at 5-10 in the past. I wouldn't mind seeing it become a staple again, especially since vegas can rarely choke out anything higher than 3-6 in 95% of casinos. It should also be noted that the only casinos that regularly spread higher games than 4-8 are the ones who DON'T put too many games too close together. I'm becoming more and more convinced of this as time goes on. Keep the limits spread far enough apart to keep the smaller games from filtering out the players from the larger ones.

al

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

That's the thing, back in "the day" the 5-10 games in AC were good. Perhaps they aren't now, but then I haven't been there in six years or so.

I also would really not care to see baby no limit take over the world. However, I've said this before, and I'll say it again...

Hold'em killed poker.

And no-limit killed hold'em.

al

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Have you seen the state of the 1/2 NL games in this town lately? Any given day of the week you may and probably will have $15 average pots with half the players all waiting for aces and kings before they'll play

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I totally agree, $1-$2 blinds sucks. I much prefer a $3 big blind for the small no limit. I would suggest a $2 small blind as well. I have "heard" of a couple casinos doing this, but I haven't ever confirmed it. I think all of vegas should switch to 2-3 blinds with $100-$200 or $100-$300 (for capped buy-in games). Whether they use $3 chips like the wynn is debatable, although personally I like the wynn game. Even if they used $1 and $5 chips tho, the starting pot would be bigger, and would generate more action for sure. There is NO doubt that $2-$5 no limit is a more action game, but I haven't seen any evidence yet that $1-$3 (or better yet $2-$3) no limit is in any way generating LESS action than 1-2.

al

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Hawaiian Gardens had thirteen $20 fixed buy (1-1 blinds) and seven $40 fixed buy (1-2 blinds) in the bar area and it's mostly kids under 25. And this is with about three to five buy-ins per hour coming off the table in drops! The floorperson said the kids actually do what they are told when she has to make a decision. I guess the new generation listens to adults

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Yeah, but with such a supply of ignorant punk-ass bitches, don't you just still kinda want to go on a major nut-kicking spree? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

al

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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As long as 2-4, 3-6, 4-8 and especially any of these games with a kill or half kill are spread, 6-12 will NOT go and you'll be lucky to get a 5-10.

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The best progression for games (assuming you do not have $2 and $3 chips) is 3-6 6-12 10-20 (maybe a single table of 1-2 as an introductory game).

If you have $2 and $3 chips I would do 3-6 6-12 and 9-18.

I think spreading $4-$8 is a serious mistake as it seems to consume the limits around it. No 6-12 which means the players can never advance becasue you can't spread a game with just a little gap. $3-$6 to $6-$12 is about the right jump as they are far enough apart that they can both exist and clsoe enough together that the jump isn't too far.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

Thanks for letting us know about this game - a bunch of us will be in town in early December, and will check it out. Like many in this thread I have but doubts about long term, but am quite pleased Aladdin is giving it a shot.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

The only problem with Vegas is this....NO ONE wants to play higher than 3/6 and 4/8 that are on vacation. A "few" players will go try a 10/20 game now and then, but that is about it. Lots of these people that are coming to Vegas (lots for the first time) and just trying out poker live for the first time or hardly have played it at all.

MGM has tried spreading 6/12 and 10/20. The games just dont go anymore and thats the biggest casino in the state with over 5000 rooms. There is only one casino that can even get these games off the ground regularly and thats the Mirage. Does anyone think that if the casinos had the ability to run these games more often based on demand that they would? MGM is even now running more 3/6 than 4/8 games. That kinda says something. It's all 1/2nl, 2/4, and 3/6 that 95% of the tourists want to play. At least 5/10 isn't that "high stakes" of a game that some of them are willing to try it. For some reason that 6/12 is one of the least appealing games in town for people to play. Even though everyone "loves" this game, it's dead. No one plays it except for 1 table at the Mirage.

I give the Aladdin credit for trying something that no one else is trying with the 5/10. It may not be the loosey goosey chip spewing game that 2/4 is, but man, dont shoot down the game before they even get a chance to get it going normally. At least they are willing to give a try and cater to some of the locals looking to move up a little bit and to some of the tourists that are sick of 2/4 and 3/6.

btw, this thread has been majorly hijacked with all the California NL discussion, LOL. Start yer own damn thread [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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MGM has tried spreading 6/12 and 10/20. The games just dont go anymore and thats the biggest casino in the state with over 5000 rooms. There is only one casino that can even get these games off the ground regularly and thats the Mirage. Does anyone think that if the casinos had the ability to run these games more often based on demand that they would? MGM is even now running more 3/6 than 4/8 games.

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A couple of notes. People on vacation will play whatever game is going. In the old days the MGM had a regular 10-20. Then someone with a high credit line in the pit got check raised by an off duty delaer so the MGM put an end to delaers playing so they had trouble gettign the game started.

There is no incentive for a room to spread higher limits unless it is part of an overall marketing plan with the casino. Larger games break plalyers faster and do not bring in more rake (sometimes they bring in less rake). There is no reason for the MGM to spread 10-20 unless they want to make an effort to have a regular 10-20. Even in the old days when the 10-20 would get started it would go really well and often get more 10-20 started. It is the local nits that want to paly against the hotel guests that get the small games started so that is what is going when the hotel guest comes in to play. The most important thing to someone on vacation is that they don't want to wait to play poker, but to say that they prefer 3-6 and 4-8 to 10-20 is ver misguided.

Re: one more thing about 5-10 structure
 

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15-30 structures basically only existed for stud games ($2 ante, $5 bring-in).


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this is dead wrong I lived in Ventnor and played B&M for a living almost everyday for a couple years way back in 1995/96 the Taj almost always had at least one $10-20 and one $15-30 going. $15-30 in AC and on the road was my main game the last year and a half of B&M poker.

First game I ever tried to start playing for a living at fulltime was the Taj $5-10 LHE -the game was good back then usually with a couple games/+ going at peak times. Peak times there were always multiple 10-20's and 15-30's going. At really slowtimes the 15 would merge into a 10 or vice versa late nite/early am. This was a long time ago thu I havent played in AC in 7 years.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

lets see here----
3/6(new players heading into the game)
5/10 10/20 15/30 20/40 30/60 40/80

I may be slow and not worth much but hey I FOUND SOMETHING HERE-- can anyone else see what I see-------

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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can anyone else see what I see------

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Well, lets see...you count goot from left to right. How's that? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Horrible choice for a limit. There is a reason why 5/10 isn't spread commonly in Vegas or LA... no action.

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You're probably right TT; I'm sure there is a reason the game isn't spready anywhere else in Vegas. But, I do know that the game is spread successfully in card rooms outside of Vegas.

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Actually, its not spread successfully. The floor at the Taj and I discussed this not long ago during ATLARGE (the only room in AC that spreads 5/10, its a limit the room management wishes to remove because the players are requesting 4/8 and don't want to play 5/10 for the most part. But upper level management won't let them change because it "differentiates the room" and the players stay in the game a long time (which continuously generates a steady rake).

Also keep in mind in many ways until recently the Taj was the only game in town, you can wait for hours at the Borg for a low limit game, or go to the Trop (which until the recent makeover many player refused to do, for some odd reason the locals believed the room is full of cheats). So the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" policy applies.

Again, let me reiterate that the 5/10 game will die a horrible death if the Aladdin is also spreading similar limits (6/12 or 4/8), the room is better off spreading 3/6/and 6/12. And YES... 6/12 will get tons of action if 4/8 isn't available. If you don't believe me, ask Mason what he thinks. I'm willing to believe he will agree.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Again, let me reiterate that the 5/10 game will die a horrible death

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I know that this is the conventional wisdom, and conventional wisdom is usually right. I've also read about the chip structure study done in LA, which backs up what all the 5/10 naysayers are claiming. Nevertheless, if 1/2 chip structures are so horrible, how come Foxwoods has fantastic 5/10 kill games. The number of games are plentiful, and the action is virtually identical to Foxwoods' 4/8 games which uses $2 chips. If one were to buy into the chip structure theory, you'd probably assume that 4/8 has a lot more action, but that's just not the case.

While I don't discount the impact of chip structures entirely, I suspect it is a far less important factor than most feel, as evidenced by the games at Foxwoods.

Additionally, I believe internet poker has created a demand for 5/10. Many people are used to playing 5/10 on their computers, but have never played in (or even seen) a 4/8, 6/12, or 8/16 game being spread online. These players specifically want to play 5/10 because that is the limit they are comfortable playing online. Back when chip structure theory was created, there was no such demand. Now that there is, the Aladdin should be able to get a few more asses in the seats, especially since they have no competition at that limit.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

The full kill is very attractive to gamblers so that is the most likely explanation why those games have good action. A straight 5-10 game is completely different than a kill game.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

What activates the kill? I think the reason why the foxwoods 5/10 kill game is so good is that a $100 pot activates the kill - and you end up with a kill pot most of the time.

Two pots in a row for a kill just plain ole sucks, IMO.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

That explains it perfectly. It isn't really a 5-10 it is a 10-20 with occasional relapses to 5-10.

The 10-20 game at Caesar's IN is probably the strongest limit in the room. It plays with a full kill but it takes two in a row to activate the kill.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

Hahahahaha, using Foxwoods as the evidence that $5/10 and bad chip structures don't matter is ridiculous.

Who the hell uses $2 chips for a $4/8 game?

Foxwoods is by far the worst run poker room in the history of the world and these are just examples of it.

Everything about that room is nitty as hell and made to keep costs down to a minimum. And the action definitely suffers there.

I have no doubt that had they actually had $10 chips made, we would have been using them while playing $20/40.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Well 3/6 is the normal low limit game spread there. Trying to spread 3/6 and 4/8 side by side does not work. It's been tried and tried. 3/6 and 5/10 on the other hand has not been tried very recently to my knowledge.

TT speaks of the 5/10 being tight with no action. Have you seen the state of the 1/2 NL games in this town lately? Any given day of the week you may and probably will have $15 average pots with half the players all waiting for aces and kings before they'll play. 2/5 NL is drying up slowly but surely. Most of the rooms that ran 3 or 4 at a time can barely get 1 or 2 off the ground now.

Players are slowly reverting back to limit. Those are the ones who played limit first and tried NL. The new players just trying NL before ever playing limit is a completely different story. Most of those players see NL as just another gambling/casino game like BJ or craps.

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Photoc, props for innovative and player-friendly thinking. I really enjoy playing at Aladdin, and I think your willingness to start spreading some new games is a welcome thing. As far as the 5/10 structure goes, though, I have to concur with others who have said that it is an action killer. The 5/10 games at Taj in AC are rock-tastic, and feature very very small pots in my experience. By contrast, the 6/12 at Borgata is slightly more loose-passive. I suppose you could make the $5/10 a better game by making it a 2 chip/4 chip game by using $2.50 chips -- that might actually be a draw in terms of it being one of a kind like the "pink" game at Tropicana AC ($7.50/$15 with $2.50 chips). Additionally, using the $2.50 chips would simplify the blind structure. If the $2.50 chip option doesn't work, why not just spread 6/12?

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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Foxwoods is by far the worst run poker room in the history of the world and these are just examples of it.

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Granted, Foxwoods is not a well run poker room by any means, but that does not mean you should entirely discount everything that takes place there just because the management is poor.

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Hahahahaha, using Foxwoods as the evidence that $5/10 and bad chip structures don't matter is ridiculous.

Who the hell uses $2 chips for a $4/8 game?

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The fact that most casinos prefer not to use $2 chips for 4/8 isn't what's important. What's important is that the 2 chip/4 chip structure is supposed to create more action than 1chip/2chip, but at Foxwoods it doesn't. How the room is run is superfluous to the argument. What's relevant is that there's no difference in quality of games between the "good" structure at 4/8 and the "bad" structure at 5/10. Or, for that matter, no difference between 5/10 and 10/20 either.

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Everything about that room is nitty as hell and made to keep costs down to a minimum. And the action definitely suffers there.

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This is just plain wrong. The action at Foxwoods is tremendous. There's not a single regular game in Vegas that approaches the softness of the games at Foxwoods. This is true at all hold 'em and O/8 limits, as well as the stud games I briefly sat in. The "poorly structured" 5/10 game at Foxwoods blows the doors of anything comparable in Vegas.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

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That explains it perfectly. It isn't really a 5-10 it is a 10-20 with occasional relapses to 5-10.

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This is not true. Occasionally there will be wacky games that play as 10/20 for hours, but typically the pots are split about 50/50 between kills and non kills.

In regard to your previous comment that the kill attracts people who are just looking to gamble it up, I think most of these types of players are playing 10/20 and higher. In fact, most of the 5/10 players there get a bit intimidated by the raise in stakes in kill pots and play more conservatively than they otherwise would. A tourist limping in for $5, and then pulling back his chip and folding because it's a kill pot is a fairly typical occourance there.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

FYI - having played the 5-10 w/kill at FW. The 5-10 playing like 10-20 is a common myth. During the daytime, this game can have less action than a 4-8 table. Maybe the game plays with more kills on Friday and Saturday nights but based on my experience only about 20-30% of the pots play at 10-20.

BTW, the West Coast kill rule is annoying and stupid. Maybe one hand in 30 plays killed and rarely 2 in a row.

Re: Are you looking for 5/10 Limit Holdem in Vegas?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What activates the kill? I think the reason why the foxwoods 5/10 kill game is so good is that a $100 pot activates the kill - and you end up with a kill pot most of the time.


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This is not true. Occasionally there will be wacky games that play as 10/20 for hours, but typically the pots are split about 50/50 between kills and non kills.


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One of you is wrong or one plays during the day and the other on weekends.

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In regard to your previous comment that the kill attracts people who are just looking to gamble it up, I think most of these types of players are playing 10/20 and higher.



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There is no point in continuing this discussion. You are convinced that you are right. Regardless of the obvious differences in a game played with or without a kill and the assurances of numerous experienced posters, you are still convinced that you are right. I conceed. You are right.