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-   -   Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=54790)

CORed 11-26-2003 02:42 PM

Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
This post is related to the thread on the Massachusets gay marriage ruling, but I am making some more general points, so I decided to start a new thread. What I am about to say will likely annoy people on both sides of the gay rights issue.

What is homosexuality? We can make one broad breakdown here. There is homsexual behavior, i.e. acts of sexual gratification between members of the same sex, and homsexual orientation, i.e. a person with homsexual orientation is sexually attracted exclusively or primarily to people of the same sex. When I refer to homsexuals, or homosexuality, I am referring to orientation, although as a practical matter, homosexual behavior nearly always goes with homseexual orientation.

Homosexuality is a harmless disfunction. I know that in calling it a disfunction, I am annoying the gay rights purists. So be it. Sex serves many funtions in human beings, but the primary function is reproduction. Homosexual behavior not reproductive. So, I am saying that homsexuals are disfunctional, abnormal people. On the other hand, I also said it is harmless. Therefore, I don't think that discriminating against homosexuals, whether by passing laws against homsexual behavior, or denying them employment or housing, is in any way excusable, nor do I see any great harm in allowing them to get married, if they so desire.

What causes homosexuality? The only rational answer at this time: We have no idea. There is some evidence to suggest that it may be biological, possibly genetic in origin, but it is by no means conclusive. Human behavior is a complex interaction between biology and environment. Most likely, there are biological factors that cause a prediposition to homsexuality, that may be triggered by something in a person's upbringing or experience.

Should homosexuals be "cured"? Well, as a practical matter, though there are some people (charlatans, IMO) who claim otherwise, we don't know how to "cure" homsexuality. Suppose, hypothetically, that science finds a surefire way to cure homosexuality. In that case, for adults, I would leave it up to individuals whether to accept or decline such treatment. Would a homsexual adult in a long-term loving relationship want to be cured? Would you (assuming your are heterosexual and married) want to be "cured" of loving your husband or wife? For young children, assuming that homosexuality could be diagnosed and cured at that stage, I would leave it to their parents to decide. Of course, risks of undesirable side effects (all medical or psychological treatments have some risks of undesirable side effects)

Homophobia: This is what gay rights advocates accuse anybody that disagrees with them of having. However, since a "phobia" is an irrational fear, I think they they may not be too far off the mark.

Evolution: Those who oppose tolerance of homosexuality and equal rights for homosexuals mostly do so on religious grounds. In this country, they are mostly Christian fundamentalists. They believe homosexuality is sinful, primarily on bilical grounds. However, there seems to be an underlying fear, usually unstated, that homosexuality, if not vigorously repressed will run rampant. There seem to be a belief that discriminatory laws and the disapproval and intolerance of our peers is the only thing preventing a large portion of the population from turning gay. Relax, folks, it ain't gonna happen. The vast majority of us are "wired" to be attracted to the opposite sex, just as we are "wired" to love and care for the children that are produced as a result. Homosexuality, regardless of the cause, is self limiting. Yes, gay people sometimes have children. Gay people sometimes have heterosexual relationships, and marriages, because they are trying to conform to the expectations of society. Lesbian women may have themselves artificially inseminated, or have sex with a man, because they want children. Nonetheless, gay people are never going to be as good at reproducing as heterosexual people. They have to make a determined effort to have children. Heterosexuals have to make a determined effort not to have children. The "invisible hand" of evolution will always ensure that the vast majority of human beings will be heterosexual. Any factor, be it bioligical or social, which promotes homosexuality, will tend to be selected out. Of course, Christian fundamentalists don't like the theory of evolution. It doesn't agree with their strict interpretation of the Book of Genesis. Nonetheless, it is just as much a proven scientific theory as the "Round Earth Therory" or the "Heliocentric Theory" (which Galileo got in trouble with the Catholic church for espousing). Christian fundamentalists see homosexuality in terms of sin and temptation, and fail to realize, that for the vast majority of humans, homosexual behavior simply isn't a temptation.

So, I'm going to offer a suggestion to everyone who believes gay people are sinners. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Let God punish the sinners. You may not approve of their behavior, and that's OK, but tolerating their behavior isn't going to cause civilization to collapse.

elwoodblues 11-26-2003 02:54 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
[ QUOTE ]
There is homsexual behavior, i.e. acts of sexual gratification between members of the same sex, and homsexual orientation, i.e. a person with homsexual orientation is sexually attracted exclusively or primarily to people of the same sex

[/ QUOTE ]

I would argue that there is a bell curve of sexuality from exclusively heterosexual on one end and exclusively homosexual on the other end. There are probably very few people who are at either end of the spectrum.

My wife and I decided to make a chart one time and "plot" the people that we know as to where we thought they would fall (okay it was a boring car ride from Minneapolis to Chicago). The chart had on one end of the Y axis Sexually disinterested on the other Nympho; on one end of the X axis completely Heterosexual on the other completely Homosexual. When we started putting people that we knew in the chart, very few people were on the edges of the graph.

[ QUOTE ]
Sex serves many funtions in human beings, but the primary function is reproduction

[/ QUOTE ]

That might be the primary biological function, but if you think reproduction is the primary function of sex in humans, you're crazy.

[ QUOTE ]
What causes homosexuality?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm one who thinks it is probably an inherent trait. What I can't yet figure out is why hasn't natural selection gotten rid of homosexuality entirely (I would suspect that the answer lies somewhere in my first point which is that sexuality is better viewed as a spectrum than an either/or proposition).

CORed 11-26-2003 03:27 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
I think your point about there being a spectrum between hetero and homo is valid.

As far as the hypothetical "homosexuality gene" not being selected out, it may be something like a lethal recessive. It takes a long time for lethal recessives to be selected out because they are only lethal if an individual is homozygous for the lethal version (both copies of the gene are the lethal version). Also, it turns out that some lethal recessives have survival value for individuals who are heterozygous (one copy is the lethal version, one copy is the normal version). For example, the sickle cell gene: Heterozyougs individuals are more resistant to Malaria. Cystic fibrosis: heterozygous individuals are more resistant to water-borne diahreal diseases.

What the survival value of the hypothetical gay gene might be for heterozyogous heterosexuals (that's a mouth full) might be is anybody's guess. Maybe better fashion sense helps them attract women. Maybe they keep their living quarters cleaner while single, and are less likely to succumb to bacterial infections before they have children.

brad 11-26-2003 03:57 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
what about aids?

CORed 11-26-2003 04:19 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
[ QUOTE ]
What about aids?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a nasty virus. However, one of two things will eventually happen: Either medical science will find a cure or preventative, or, as humans and the AIDS virus co-evolve, it will become less virulent. The latter will take thousands of years, thought, and it could be bad in the mean time.

If you are suggesting that AIDS somehow justifies discrimination against gay men, then you have a very poor understanding of the disease.

brad 11-26-2003 04:23 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
'If you are suggesting that AIDS somehow justifies discrimination against gay men, then you have a very poor understanding of the disease. '

so u think having hundreds of 'lovers' and blood contact (eg anal sex) has nothing to do with it?

you think gay men get aids at rate only seen by iv drug users is just a coincidence?

CORed 11-26-2003 04:30 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
Certainly, promiscuity and unprotected anal sex increase one's risk of getting AIDS. If people (of whatever orientation) indulge in such risky behavior, they have only themselves to blame if they get AIDS, or some other nasty disease.

elwoodblues 11-26-2003 04:33 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
[ QUOTE ]
so u think having hundreds of 'lovers' and blood contact (eg anal sex) has nothing to do with it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right...all gay people have hundreds of lovers. No wonder they're gay.

You should probably support gay marriage then because it encourages monogomous relationships.

brad 11-26-2003 04:35 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
so u dont think gays are more promiscuous than heteros ?

(i mean lets face it its the women who r the limiting factor [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

CORed 11-26-2003 04:40 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
[ QUOTE ]
so u dont think gays are more promiscuous than heteros ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's likely that, on average, gay men are more promiscuuos than heteros, but as with everything, there's a lot of individual variation. Also, a lot of gay men eventually "settle down" into a monogamous relationship.

elwoodblues 11-26-2003 04:48 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
[ QUOTE ]
so u dont think gays are more promiscuous than heteros ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. Some are probably really promiscuous, but the majority aren't. If your only experience with gay men is seeing/hearing about what happens at a gay bar/club, I suggest you go hang out at a night club that is frequented by young straight folks and make a fair comparison.

Every single gay person that I know (I know quite a few...I attended an all male college, have many close friends who are gay, and attend Gay cultural events frequently...e.g. the Twin Cities Gay Men's Chorus) is either single and doesn't date anyone, is a serial monogomist (i.e. someone who is always in a relationship - dating someone - but does so for an extended period of time), or is in a long-term monogomous relationship.


brad 11-26-2003 04:50 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
'Nope. Some are probably really promiscuous, but the majority aren't.'

how do u explain aids decimating homo population then? heteros have anal sex too although i suppose not at rates of gays.

you think god is striking them down or something?

adios 11-26-2003 04:51 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. Some are probably really promiscuous, but the majority aren't. If your only experience with gay men is seeing/hearing about what happens at a gay bar/club, I suggest you go hang out at a night club that is frequented by young straight folks and make a fair comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey we actually agree on something.

elwoodblues 11-26-2003 04:57 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
That usually means it's time for you to re-evaluate your position.

Michael Davis 11-26-2003 04:59 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
"The "invisible hand" of evolution will always ensure that the vast majority of human beings will be heterosexual."

-This seems inconsistent with your assertion that sexuality is environmentally determined.

CORed 11-26-2003 05:10 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
How do you explain AIDS decimating the (mostly heterosexual) population of Africa? Does God hate Africans? Are Africans more promiscuous?

Although promiscuity is certainly a risk factor for AIDS, the notion that only the promiscuous (or only gay men) are at risk is laughable. AIDS has a very long incubation period. A serially monagamous population can easilty sustain an epidemic. We are seeing the first stage of the epidemic here. The disease has been in Africa much longer. Whether we will start seeing it spread into the heterosexual population in America remains to be seen. There is some epidemiological evidence that male circmcision reduces the risk of female to male heterosexual transmission, which appears to be the weak link in heterosexual transmission. Also, the presence of other STD's in a male increases his risk of catching the disease from a woman, which may account for the higher rate of heterosexual AIDS in the third world, where such diseases are not as well controlled as here.

Michael Davis 11-26-2003 05:17 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
Different types of sex carry different risks of AIDS. This has nothing to do with sexuality, although if you look at it entirely illogically, you might conclude such.

Perhaps if the powers that be weren't so foolish, AIDS could have been a lesser problem. At least, if you believe the melodrama of And the Band Played On.

-Mike

brad 11-26-2003 05:17 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
'Although promiscuity is certainly a risk factor for AIDS, the notion that ...only gay men ... are at risk is laughable.'

yeah ok. sure.

gays and iv drug users are not at a higher risk than general population. if you really know gay people you would know better than that.

btw, why do u assume afrikans are not promiscuous? other cultures have differents mores about these things. look at south africa.

brad 11-26-2003 05:22 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
'Different types of sex carry different risks of AIDS. This has nothing to do with sexuality, although if you look at it entirely illogically, you might conclude such.'

how is it illogical?

if groups A is statistically more promiscous and engage in 'higher risk' sex than group B,

then

what is wrong with recognizing that (at least at one point in time) , these groups are also divided along homo/hetero lines?

andyfox 11-26-2003 05:33 PM

Hopefully American Airlines Will Respond
 
So that we can be entertained.

Michael Davis 11-26-2003 05:37 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
Because it is the practice of different types of sex that you are identifying. This is only an accidental quality of sexuality and is certainly no requirement. It is correct to say that people who engage in anal sex are at more risk for AIDS. It may also be correct to say that homosexuals are, but it is much less clear than the first statement.

Promiscuity=increased risk. Sexuality doesn't matter. Anal sex=increased risk. Sexuality doesn't matter.

-Mike

brad 11-26-2003 05:46 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
how do u then explain the fact that aids has totally decimated the homosexual population in the US?

my main point is that if youre a gay man u better watch out or you will freakin die.

if youre a hetero you need to watch out for disease and pregnancy, but you just need to take basic precautions.

if youre a gay man, you need to take much more than basic precautions.

the worst possible advice to give a young gay man is to tell him that he is at no greater risk of aids than a hetero and that he doesnt hav to worry.

Michael Davis 11-26-2003 05:56 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
"if youre a gay man, you need to take much more than basic precautions."

What do you mean by this? Homosexuals can prevent the spread of HIV by taking the same precautions as heterosexuals. Getting into specifics isn't really necessary, but perhaps wearing a double or triple condom is more necessary for this group, because of the type of intercourse.

If you mean to say that it is more likely that a homosexual's partner has AIDS, this is true. Thus, it is more important that they take basic precautions, but I don't understand what you mean by saying they have to do more than this.

-Mike

brad 11-26-2003 06:02 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
'but I don't understand what you mean by saying they have to do more than this.
'

responsible gay men who are not in a monogamous relationship (and have been for some time)

should get tested for hiv and other stds at least yearly, preferebly 6months.

and really gay men need to be almost fanatical about sex, eg, no unprotected sex ever. youd be surprised at the cavalier attitude among (really both gays and nongays), but the difference is that gays are just a high risk group, youre opinion not withstanding.

to sum up, unwanted pregnancies and abortions are the mark of lazy hetero sex , but death by aids is mark of lazy homo sex.

elwoodblues 11-26-2003 06:07 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
[ QUOTE ]
to sum up, unwanted pregnancies and abortions are the mark of lazy hetero sex , but death by aids is mark of lazy homo sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any heterosexual who has unprotected sex with someone that they are not 100% sure is free from STDs is an idiot. No different than a homosexual.

brad 11-26-2003 06:15 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
'Any heterosexual who has unprotected sex with someone that they are not 100% sure is free from STDs is an idiot. No different than a homosexual. '

sure but my point is

a) heteros are often 100% sure no std but they forget about pregnancy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

b) homos have *much* higher chance of being infected so any error is magnified there

c) most people are idiots. unfortunately, homos are punished much more severely for mistakes everyone makes

d) because of c), homos must be much more careful.

elwoodblues 11-26-2003 06:20 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
[ QUOTE ]
homos must be much more careful

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that you're either careful or you're not. There really isn't a middle ground. It might be safer to play Russian Roullette with a six-chamber gun than a (imaginary) 12-chamber gun, but It's stupid to play either way.

brad 11-26-2003 06:27 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
my point, as borne out by facts (such as aids deaths) , is that

similiar to folding on river for one bet in super large pot versus tiny pot -

the consequences are magnitudes graver for homos.

heteros are not careful all the time (as evidenced by abortions if nothing else) and yet there is no real aids explosion among heteros. (in US)

another way to look at it is that almost all adults have herpes - cold sores - orally. im sure i do as many girlfriends and relatives have had them (many children are infected by innocent kisses from relatives), yet i have never had an outbreak. so its not such a big deal as not really any consequences.


MMMMMM 11-26-2003 07:13 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
"How do you explain AIDS decimating the (mostly heterosexual) population of Africa? Does God hate Africans? Are Africans more promiscuous?"

I've read in numerpous places (including newspapers) that in (is it Kenya?, where AIDS is so rampant--I forget which African country) that in that country which is so decimated by AIDS, that anal sex is a very common practice amongst the straight population. Maybe it's used as a method of birth control in that impoverished area--I don't know, but I'm sure I read this in mainstream magazines and newspapers. Also it's common medical knowledge that anal sex carries a high risk for transmission of the AIDS virus--higher than vaginal intercourse. Might has to do with the fact that the lining of the intestine absorbs directly into the bloodstream.

brad 11-26-2003 07:43 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
'for transmission of the AIDS virus--higher than vaginal intercourse. Might has to do with the fact that the lining of the intestine absorbs directly into the bloodstream.
'

ive heard it has to with small tears in anal tissue which bleed a bit and so you know.

also prostitution is rampant in africa ive heard. (even among married men, etc.)

ACPlayer 11-26-2003 09:21 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
Correection:

The worst possible advice to give a young straight man/woman is to tell him/her that he is at less risk of aids than a homosexual and that he does not have to worry.

ACPlayer 11-26-2003 09:22 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
I suspect it is a "cultural" thing.

brad 11-26-2003 09:26 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
not true. its really not necessary for normal people who take moderate precautions to get tested for hiv once or twice a year, for example.

in any event i have facts to back up my position, (eg, aids statistics.)

if you go around trying to scare people (a la smoking pot makes u crazy) you'll just lose your audience.

if you want to talk to heteros you talk about pregnancy , herpes, gen. warts, throw in some hep C and the clap maybe, and use aids as 'the worst case'.

for homos (at least in big cities) aids is a fact of life and many of their friends or friends of friends are hiv+.

MMMMMM 11-26-2003 09:34 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
Well whatever it is due to, it is true that hetero anal sex is a rampant practice in that country or in that part of Africa (far more so than in the US for example). Look it up if you don't believe me. And I guess since it isn't due to genetics it must be due to cultural practices in that region, just as you say--eh, ACPlayer? Only two possible causes for rampant prevalence of that practice there: either genetics or culture. Obviously not genetics in this case, right? So just WHAT is your problem anyway ACPlayer???

brad 11-26-2003 09:37 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
M is right every time i travel to africa i end up [censored] in the ass.

MMMMMM 11-26-2003 09:43 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
brad here is a surefire preventive method for you: just get an athletic cup and put it on backwards and wear it all the time even while you are sleeping. You'll be just fine on your next trip I guarantee it.

MMMMMM 11-26-2003 09:47 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
ACPlayer you can't do math correctly if you try to do math politically correctly

ACPlayer 11-26-2003 10:36 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
I doubt that you are speaking from factgs on this one.

I dont know if anal sex is more prevalent in Africa or not and neither do you, except from some vague article you claim to have read. Give what I have seen of your reading comprehension I will just take it with a grain of salt

ACPlayer 11-26-2003 10:43 PM

Re: Homosexuality, Homophobia and Evlolution
 
Any responsible person advising a younger sexually active person of either the gay or straight kind will provide exactly the same advice.

Now it is true that for men vaginal intercourse is less risky than anal (whether with an infected man or woman) for women unprotected sex is just as risky with an infected man.

Making a differentiation based on sexual orientation is nonsensical.

If you have facts, please state your position clearly and back them up.

John Cole 11-26-2003 10:57 PM

Roy Cohn on Homosexuality
 
From Tony Kushner's Angels in America.

Roy Cohn: I'm not a homosexual; I just like to f*ck men.


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