i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

in all honesty i dont think i like that turn raise very much. i think i am pushing myself a bit too hard and end up making "fancy" instead of standard plays. i did it because he could be bluffing, he could have a weak pair and i am hopefully buying myself a free showdown with this raise.


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (9 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Re: i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

Why didn't you cap the river with 2nd nuts?

Re: i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you cap the river with 2nd nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian's river 3-bet means Ks more than 50% of the time.

Re: i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]

Why didn't you cap the river with 2nd nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing its because villan most likely wouldn't 3bet with 3rd nuts or less....

Haupt_234

Re: i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you cap the river with 2nd nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian's river 3-bet means Ks more than 50% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say it's closer to 80%. If we had the T instead of the Q we could probably find a fold to the 3-bet.

Let's think about your turn raise, and what purpose it serves. There's two options to why you would want to do this. First, he has a better hand that you can get to fold. This is possible is he has a 2 or 5, however both of these are less likely than a J/spade draw just from the types of hands that will defend in the BB (though you didn't give any reads). The parlay of this happening by itself (having a 2/5 and folding) might beat the 1 in 7 you need.

Second reason: Charge a 1-spade flush draw an extra BB. I don't like this argument though when the villain is aggressive and OOP, since he will likely bet this river 90% of the time whether he hits or misses. You'll get 2BB in the pot either way if you just call.

Now the downside: If you're 3-bet here, which is a very real possibility since he could raise the flop with a flush draw, then you have to call with the 2nd nuts.I think the chance of a 3-bet here is too big, and combined with only the marginal folding equity vs. a 2 or 5 makes this turn a call.

The bigger question is if you call the turn, what non-spade river cards are you calling another BB for? This is where a read would be nice.

Re: i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you cap the river with 2nd nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian's river 3-bet means Ks more than 50% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say it's closer to 80%. If we had the T instead of the Q we could probably find a fold to the 3-bet.

Let's think about your turn raise, and what purpose it serves. There's two options to why you would want to do this. First, he has a better hand that you can get to fold. This is possible is he has a 2 or 5, however both of these are less likely than a J/spade draw just from the types of hands that will defend in the BB (though you didn't give any reads). The parlay of this happening by itself (having a 2/5 and folding) might beat the 1 in 7 you need.

Second reason: Charge a 1-spade flush draw an extra BB. I don't like this argument though when the villain is aggressive and OOP, since he will likely bet this river 90% of the time whether he hits or misses. You'll get 2BB in the pot either way if you just call.

Now the downside: If you're 3-bet here, which is a very real possibility since he could raise the flop with a flush draw, then you have to call with the 2nd nuts.I think the chance of a 3-bet here is too big, and combined with only the marginal folding equity vs. a 2 or 5 makes this turn a call.

The bigger question is if you call the turn, what non-spade river cards are you calling another BB for? This is where a read would be nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a really good post.

my turn raise only folds out better hands, and occasionally charges someone with a random ass hand that tries to get tricky. i think its a good turn raise if the player has check raised me on teh flop before and i want to get to a showdown cheaply against him.

stealthcow-

Re: i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]

this is a really good post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

[ QUOTE ]

my turn raise only folds out better hands, and occasionally charges someone with a random ass hand that tries to get tricky. i think its a good turn raise if the player has check raised me on teh flop before and i want to get to a showdown cheaply against him.

stealthcow-

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed my point though. If you feel he has a random ass hand, then your best bet is to call down. He is out of position, so if he's on a pure bluff he is going to fire on the river again 90% of the time. By just calling you get to showdown for the same price as raising the turn and make 2BB when he's bluffing, vs. 1BB when you raise the turn and he folds.

I should really write a seperate post for this, but I think the raise turn for free showdown play is highly overrated. The majority of time people use it, it would be much better to simply call down.

Re: i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
my turn raise only folds out better hands

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe not a pair of jacks, but there are definitely players around who will a better hand to your turn raise, especially if you often wait until the turn to raise with top pair or an overpair when heads up on the flop a lot like I do. In fact, I try to jump on opportunities to do this just so I can show that my turn raises don't always mean my opponent is f'd.

my mstake
 

i meant it only folds out "worse" hands. sorry guys. i'm 3 tabling , so i am not proof reading at my best.

Re: my mstake
 

Hah oops I didn't even notice that. I meant that I DO think he will fold better hands sometimes.

Re: my mstake
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hah oops I didn't even notice that. I meant that I DO think he will fold better hands sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree sometimes this is true. However, I don't think he pulls it off on this board 1 in 7 times. Plus, when you consider the risk of a 3-bet, I think it still makes sense for a turn call.

Addition: FWIW, I'd be more inclined to try this type of turn move if I didn't have the Qs since I could easily fold to a turn 3-bet.

Re: my mstake
 

this shouold proably go in anotehr threat, but i think there are a few important things to figure out.

who your oponent is. against an unknown, a tag, a 60/5 (which this guy happened to be) or a very tight player.

if they will fold better hands

if they are likely to give up on a bluff

if you've seen them c/r light.

will they 3 bet top pair

i'm thinking this is a good play to make if you know your opponent well but the standard play on a player you haven't see yet is to just call down. very curious what other players say

stealthcow-

Re: i hate how this hand played out. 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]

i think its a good turn raise if the player has check raised me on teh flop before and i want to get to a showdown cheaply against him.


[/ QUOTE ]

Eh?

Do you mean you want to get to showdown cheaply in future hands? Because raising the turn on this hand can only make it more expensive.

Guy.

Re: my mstake
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree sometimes this is true. However, I don't think he pulls it off on this board 1 in 7 times...

Addition: FWIW, I'd be more inclined to try this type of turn move if I didn't have the Qs since I could easily fold to a turn 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK hold on. I'm pretty sure Hero only needs to fold a better hand much less than 1 in 7 BECAUSE he has the flush draw and so many outs. Even if our opponent calls, we will still often win. Thus, it makes no sense at all for this to be a better turn raise without the flush draw.