what makes a republican/Democrat
 

Republicans:

1) free market gurus (liberals)
2) Christian conservatives (conservatives)
3) Nationalists (conservatives)
4) Major corporations (non-idealistic, self interested)

The free market gurus believe strongly that the best way to gurantee equal opportunity for all is a totally a free market. Many of these people also believe in social freedom and could care less about America's position of power in the world.

The conservative Christians and the Nationalists group are very similar. The only difference is that the former worship Christ first and America second while the latter worship America first and Christ second. These people believe that America is Good and is destined to be the worlds lone superpower. It is our duty as Americans to insure that destiny is fulfilled.

Democrats:

1)Labor Unions (non idealistic, self interested)
2)Urban activist (half liberal and half conservative)
3)social libertarians (liberal)
4)Enviromental groups (anti-conservative but not exactly liberal, there members are probably social libertarians, however)

Most of these groups are self explanatory, especially if you read my earlier post which explains what it means to be liberal and conservative and how many urban activist or only half liberal. Enviromentalist are interesting because they aren't liberal but just anti-corporation and anti-nationalists. I do feel, however, that most enviromentalists are also social libertarians.

I find this interesting that you can be a Republican and hate the conservative christians and nationalists, being pro-corporation and anti-labor. And you can be a Democrat that believes that America is a Christian nation destined by God to be the worlds lone super power.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

In both of your threads, I find your categorizations a bit too haphazard and non-definite. If this stuff interests you, go to websites with a test to place you on the political spectrum, and study the questions instead of answering them (ask for each question, which position would each of the parties take on this issue?)

Some sites to try:

http://politicalcompass.org/

http://www.okcupid.com/politics

and you can find more.

You can get a good overview of the set of issues that define the differences between the parties, as well as those issues that find both support and opposition within both parties.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

Perhaps you found the definitions too non-definite because I tried to show how some Republicans are more liberal than some Democrats and vice versa. That may seem counter intuitive when our media insists on labeling Democrats as the liberal party and Republicans as the conservative one. I find that categorization to completely mislead the public. You can't find out where you are on the political spectrum if the spectrum isn't properly defined. And you can't think clearly about the issues without understanding the political spectrum.

FWIW, I studied one of your links. I'm already well aware of how the parties operate. Money and imperfect ideological alliances bind the parties together. Democrats can't win without labor and the enviromentalist yet labor could care less about the enviroment and vice versa. Most political gays are Democrats, but many in the urban activist wing of the Democratic party think homosexuality is a sin. But they have to live together politically, because, neither of them are represented at all by the Republicans. The Republican party is much the same way. Their tent is smaller but you have Jack Kemp on one wing who probably completely disagrees with everything Cheney stands for. Yet they are both Republican because the Democrats have no room for Kemp.

FWIW, your link does provide a usable political spectrum. But I think there should be a place for enviromental concerns. Even free market gurus like Kemp recognize that the free market cannot possibly regulate the environment: there is no economic incentive to do so. (Quota trading tries to remedy this but right next to my house there is open land, more arid than the month of August, that due to quota trading is technically a wetland) As I mentioned in my latter post, environmental issues seem to have their own sphere outside of liberal and conservatism. For example many environmentalist condemn the use of DDT by third world countries. DDT kills vegetation but also kills malaria insects. Malaria is probably the 2nd biggest reason why Africa and SouthEast Asia are so impoverished.

My definitions may seem haphazard, but they are not. The political spectrum is complicated and the American political landscape even more so. I showed how social liberals can disagree with each other on issues like guns and abortion. If social liberals sometimes disagree with each other then you can see how social liberals will quite often disagree with 'economic mobility' liberals. Then add labor and enviromentalist to the mix and you see how the saying, the democratic senator from so and so really means nothing at all.

As a free market advocate, I don't believe that the media has a obligation to educate the public, but I do believe that the public would appreciate a media source that didn't label a politician as being conservative or liberal, democrat or republican. There are different types of liberals/conservative and different types of Republicans/democrats. I think the the public would appreciate a media source that concisely labeled those differences.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

We should start a thread for people to post their results of those tests. Here's mine:

[ QUOTE ]
You are a

Social Liberal
(75% permissive)

and an...

Economic Moderate
(55% permissive)

You are best described as a:

Democrat


You exhibit a very well-developed sense of Right and Wrong and believe in economic fairness. loc: (93, 18)
modscore: (33, 45)
raw: (3142)

[/ QUOTE ]

And the "Political Compass" had me at:

[ QUOTE ]
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54

[/ QUOTE ]

... close to Gandhi. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

[ QUOTE ]
... close to Gandhi. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that they have gandhi in the wrong spot.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... close to Gandhi. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that they have gandhi in the wrong spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should let them know that.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

Mine:

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/863/people8kj.th.jpg http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/1...logy3hp.th.png

[ QUOTE ]
You are a Social Liberal (83% permissive) and an... Economic Conservative (95% permissive). You are best described as a: Anarchist. You exhibit a very well-developed sense of Right and Wrong and believe in economic fairness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

I am 80% on both scales and classified as Libertarian. Pretty accurate except that is says that I have a clear distinction between right and wrong which I don't believe is the case.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

You Unabomber types scare me. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

Money and Power

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

I was close to the unabomber too. Cool

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

The unabomber is a great poker player. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

Center on econonmics, -1.59 Libertarian. Sounds about right. I believe in the free market, but it's not the solution to everything. And I'm not religious, plus I'm in high school.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

Nice writeup, jt1!

I think you have a lot of good ideas there. These categorizations of characteristics -- "Republican" or "Democrat" -- seem quite arbitrary. IMO, that's an artifact of a two-party system. We've got to put all human concerns into two categories. That's quite an oversimplification of the human condition! But, that's the system in place. I don't have an answer, it just strikes me as quite a problem.

Republicans have picked up quite a bit of steam carrying the "Nationalism" flag. Are you "for the U.S." or "against the U.S."? Simple choice for simple minds.

The Democrats need better leadership, organization and unification. The problem with the Democrats is that there is no strong voice or unifying cause. I choke on my vomit a little as I vote for pencil necks like Kerry or Gore. At least Bush has some balls, even if he is a shifty-eyed weasel. I hope next time the Democrats put up a candidate, he'll show some strength and courage of conviction, without squawking like a chicken like Dean in the last election. Give us some charisma. Sad to say, but the issues don't really matter as much as the voice delivering them. The Democrats don't seem to get this, despite the past success of Bill Clinton.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

I consider myself a free-market champion, but I'm definitely not a Repulcian. George Bush has done more to [censored] up the budget of this country and mortgage its future than any presdent in history. Bill Clinto was our last free-market president and he was a true-blue Democrat who grew the economy more than it had ever been grown before. Of course, Gee Duh made sure to tank the econmy as soon as he took office.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

[ QUOTE ]

You are a

Social Liberal
(88% permissive)


and an...

Economic Conservative
(88% permissive)


You are best described as a:


Anarchist


You exhibit a very well-developed sense of Right and Wrong and believe in economic fairness. loc: (143, 143)
modscore: (53, 53)
raw: (5152)


[/ QUOTE ]

Some akwardly worded questions but overall a pretty entertaining test. I'm glad to see myself right up there next to good old Ted K.

Who is that guy from the 18th century right next to Ted?

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope next time the Democrats put up a candidate, he'll show some strength and courage of conviction, without squawking like a chicken like Dean in the last election.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really sucked that his "squawk" was taken out of context. Did you ever see the real version of that memorable scream? The audience barely heard it because people were yelling so loud. It's a shame that cost him the Democratic nomination -- he definitely had the testicular fortitude of which you speak.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who is that guy from the 18th century right next to Ted?

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like Thomas Jefferson to me. And is that Ted Nugent at the top-middle? If so, cool!

I guess I'm a libertarian now...

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

I don't necessarily like your associating nationalism with conservatism:

I'm a civil libertarian and a social democrat, and I'm extremely nationalistic in that I don't want Washington or Beijing to lay so much as a finger on our policies, on our economy, or on our natural resources. To be fair, I also favour fair free trade with like-minded nations and I favour restricting non-refugee immigration only based on the level of covert operations and spying that their country's government undertakes (which would make life miserable for a Russian, Chinese, or American seeking Canadian citizenship) and on the prominence of anti-secular religious fundamentalism in their country of origin (which means that I'd favour being strict on immigrants from the U.S., the Middle East, the Indian Subcontinent, a few African Nations, and North Korea (Yes, Juche counts as a religion...Although the possbility of North Korean immigrants is so slim as to make the issue irrelevant.).

Similarly, the Tibetan-Government-In-Exile is run by the extremely nationalistic National Democratic Party (not to be confused with a neo-Nazi German party of the same name), whose views are textbook civil libertarian and democratic socialist. Nationalism, in India, meanwhile, is common among everyone from Hindu fundamentalists (religious nationalism) to Gandhi-loving Congress supporters (secular nationalism) to Stalinists (again, secular). Finally, nationalists in China tend to hold very authoritarian political view points ranging from Maoism (common among nationalists on the Mainland) to ultra-conservatism (Oddly, conservatives and capitalists in Hong Kong are Beijing's biggest allies there, while liberals, socialists, and civil libertarians favour centrist and leftist parties andorganisations dedicated to universal suffrage, the protection of civil liberties and human rights, a welfare state, and full democracy) while Taiwan features Taiwanese nationalists who are slightly left-leaning centrists and more socially liberal than conservatives and pan-Chinese nationalists with extremely right-wing and authoritarian views, as the original anti-communists in the Kuomintang and its fascist allies are now in bed with Beijing (as both sides have become less about ideology and more about authoritarianism and Chinese natonalism), who would give these crooks more power, more money, and more status than an independent Taiwan would give them. As an aside, it is my opinion that Taiwanese nationalists are making a huge mistake in trusting Washington: The KMT vs. CCP reality ended the day Lee Teng-hui started running the show (I do not feel like delving into Lee Teng-hui's politics and the fracturing of the Kuomintang that resulted thereby), and corporate America and its lobbyists control both political parties in the U.S. These greedy chumos want a China where socialism exists in name only (Maoism was as bad for them as it was for the Chinese people), where labour rights are non-existent, and where people serve only as a cheap labour for wealthy Western parasites: The corrupt thugs in the C"C"P are more than willing to accomodate them, as they have moved from the evil of Stalinism to the evil of crony capitalism with vaguely socialist trappings.

Holy crap! I just ranted about Chinese politics as interpreted by Hong Kong's far-left. :-P

On topic:

Republicans: Bigoted lunatics
Democrats: Spineless girly-men

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope next time the Democrats put up a candidate, he'll show some strength and courage of conviction, without squawking like a chicken like Dean in the last election.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really sucked that his "squawk" was taken out of context. Did you ever see the real version of that memorable scream? The audience barely heard it because people were yelling so loud. It's a shame that cost him the Democratic nomination -- he definitely had the testicular fortitude of which you speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link, KipBond.

Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything for me. I've never been much for pep-rally atmospheres. The best I can figure, this offering is just a rehash with the squawk edited/muted. But, I'll concede that the "mainstream media" squawk was certainly enhanced and amplified.

The link still shows me a man, begging and pleading, but without confidence or focussed conviction. I don't know Dean well, but he comes off to me to be just as much of a weasel as GWB. Trading a weasel for a weasel doesn't inspire me. We need some real leaders.

Re: what makes a republican/Democrat
 

Good post, your knowledge of other countries politics is beaucoup. But nationalism has always been associated with conservative thought. It certainly isn't liberal. The classic liberals like Rousseau, Locke, Mill were all universalists. Whereas their conservative counterparts, Machiavelli and Hobbes believed in the nation-state. I don't know much about the modern day liberals and conservatives, but Reagon is far more nationalist than say Chomsky.