A hand from this weekend
 

Thought I would post this hand as it seemed "interesting" to say the least.

3/6 HE "Live" game.

I am in MP with a good sized stack, game is mostly tight/passive with a loose aggressive player in LP who has been in 7 or 8 of the last 10 hands winning a couple and losing the rest.

Cards come out and I am dealt Jc Tc. UTG limps,3 people fold, I limp as does the person next to me, 1 other and the LP aggressive type. SB calls and BB checks...

Flop comes out Td Ts Jh (yippee). UTG folds, I bet, guy next to me folds, other guy folds, LP calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn comes Js (yippee again). I bet, LP raises!! I start wondering what the heck he could have...KK? QQ? SB folds, I contemplate a re-raise but end up just calling because if he has KK AA or QQ he actually would have more outs than me to river the higher full house.

River, Kx (don't really remember the suit). I check, LP bets, I call. Yup...turns over JK and I waive bye bye. Question on my play and on his. I don't think he could have put me on a J so should he have been firing? I feel like I couldn't control anything after the flop because I went from MP to an EP.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

Well this is interesting. I was playing at Foxwoods on Friday and saw several full houses checked. Now I understand what goes through people's heads.

Sir, why are you worrying about outs on the turn? You have a full house, which is a fantastic hand. The only hand that can beat you is 4 tens. Start tossing chips around now and raise. Not only is your opponent drawing against big odds, but he has a good hand that he will pay you off with. You can't worry about your opponents hitting longshots against you. These are the times you want your opponents to call your big raises, when they are drawing very slim and you are very strong.

Having said all this, you were going to lose this hand, but if you continue to not get money in the pot when your hand is that good you are missing out on a lot of money in the future.

Good luck!

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

Three bet the turn. You are at worst tied for the best hand right now. You could very well be in the lead, and now you are going to let your opponent get a free showdown? If he fourbets, I will call, and give him credit for the other jack. Every once in a while, I get clever, and give my opponents credit for having the hand that would chop with me, and then we showdown, and he didn't have it, and I get a sick feeling as I realize that I just left two or three bets on the table.

It doesn't matter that your opponent did suck out on you this hand, big time, and there probably was no point that he was ever going to fold. Next hand.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

I don't really follow your thinking on the turn. First the yippie is a bit misplaced, since it kills your action and you are splitting here 90% of the time with mr raiser.

Also, you should re-raise here all day long. You have the nuts, and if LP doesn't have the other jack, he is just paying you off. You certainly hope LP has something like QQ-AA because then he only has 2 outs to beat you, which is certainly less than the 42 other cards which could come and let you win. On the other hand if you know ... i repeat 99.99% KNOW ... he would never bet here with anything other than a jack, you should still bet and call his 4-bet instead of putting in the 5th.

Well one of the 12 cards that can cost you the pot came and did its job. Ouch, well at least your reluctance on the turn saved you a couple bets.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

Also make note of the fact that out hero was holding a ten as well, thus ensuring that his opponent could not be ahead on the turn.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

Thanks for your reply Lil...and you are right. However, I also lose to JJ and I didn't have any position after the UTG caller folded. Remember, this was limit. All I could do was bet at the flop and hope for a raise.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

Exactly my thought after thinking about it. Thanks Bob. It worked out that I ended up saving a bet but I should have pressed on.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

OK, the yippie was meant to be a little sarcastic. But it still follows. At that point the odds are still with me as I have top set filled with the third completion of either house sitting in my hand. The only possible combination at the turn to hurt me would be an identical 10 J and that would be a chop. The mere fact that the river sucked out does not make the turn a bad card for me. I thought about the reraise on the turn but didn't complete the thought. Should have maybe. I really value everyone's input here. Thanks and it really helped.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

"However, I also lose to JJ and I didn't have any position after the UTG caller folded."
Sorry I wrote 10-10 and meant to write J-J. Position is not important in deciding if you should re-raise or not in this case. The fact that you have a super-strong hand that is very likely best is what should make you want to re-raise.

"Remember, this was limit. All I could do was bet at the flop and hope for a raise."
This is a LIMIT hold-em forum?!?! Damn, all 180 of my posts are irrelevant! [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

However, I also lose to JJ

How could you lose to JJ when you held a J?

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

Lil,

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I am just learning and any help is appreciated. Others have said that a reraise after the turn would have been correct just as you said. It was a terrible beat and the loose/aggressive player was not going to back down (frankly, with his cards, I wouldn't have either). Sigh, oh well. Live and learn.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

I was speaking about after the flop (there were still 2 out). Of course, after the turn I could only be chopped. The river was a dagger.

Full house check?
 

Until you get really good, and not just think you are, bet every single full house you ever get. Sure you will lose a few hands. SO WHAT!?! If you waste time trying to figure out when you MAY be beat, you will lose a lot of bets.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

On the turn, go a few more bets until you are sure your opponent has the case Jack. You have the nuts and at worst are tied.

The Jack on the turn is an utterly horrible card for you. It kills your action except from opponents who have a T or the case J (and even a T will only check and call).

-- Homer

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

You say yippee again on the turn card, but it's actually quite a bad one for you, as you have now been counterfeited. The turn raise clearly represents the case Jack, and you gain nothing from 3-betting because, as you noted, he is now a money favorite over you (though if you really put him on AA-QQ, which is IMO not a very good read, then you probably should 3-bet). You were correct to call the turn raise and then check-call the river. Poker's a rough game.. this was a tough beat.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

As Homer said, he could be tied at worst. Why not raise again to be sure in case he isn't? At 3-6, who knows what wacky crap he could have? Does it hurt that much to raise again?

Perhaps I am not giving enough credit to the average $3-$6 live player.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

On the turn you are splitting with Any jack, not just JT ... the only ones that can potentially steal the hand from you are AJ-KJ-QJ.

Even though the turn isn't the worst card in the deck, it certainly isn't one you wanted to see. You are now chopping instead of winning and the two pair on the board is going to kill all your action from the hands you want to stay in the pot.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

I agree that you should go one more bet at least before slowing down on the turn, enough people will bet a 10 here to make it profiatble.

Re: Full house check?
 

"Until you get really good, and not just think you are"

Umm, who said that I thought I was? As I have said, I am new and just learning. This forum has, for the most part, been exceedingly helpful in speeding up the curve.

Of course, there are some who justify their small amount of knowledge by ridiculing those who are just learning. I am sure your slap was unintentional and that you would not fall into that category.

Your advice on playing every full house betting everything is a little illogical but your point is taken.

Re: A hand from this weekend
 

Lil,

I probably should have bet out instead of calling. However, I didn't. Dumb move that worked out ok.

Just a quick note about about the 3/6 game. The game is on a Riverboat in the St. Louis area. A smaller cardroom and the only games spread for Holdem are 3/6, 6/12, and 10/20. On the weekends they will spread a 20/40 game that is very competitive. The 3/6 game is usually pretty tight/passive with many regulars. They know the game pretty well and it's been a great place to practice learning fundamentals without getting killed.