a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

This got a little longer than intended, sorry for that

NL Hold Em hand from Ceasars (Atlantic City) last night.

I raise PF and get HU with the BB. BB checks the flop, I bet (bluff) $40 and BB check raises all-in for about $100.

So far so good. Now, my cards happen to be up against the cusion of the table. I don't know why, I NEVER have them there. I think it may be because I'm in the 6 seat and the players on either side of me seem especially "nosy". My chips are to the left of my cards, about 3 inches from the cusion.

In any event, after she check raises for $60 more I reach for the chips on top of my 20 stacks. It was 4 whites and 4 reds. I had been shuffling those particular 8 chips for a while, as I hadn't played a hand in a few orbits. <font color="red"> </font> I brought them across my cards with my right hand, and began shuffling them. It was probably a centimeter (maybe two?) in front of my cards. It was nowhere near looking like a call in any way. My hand never came off the chips, and I was looking straight down as I recall.

Dealer, (who seemed to be just waiting for me to do this [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]) immediately announces it as a call, and that I owe $60.

DEALER: That's a call
ME: Oh c'mon man, are you serious?
DEALER: The chips were infront of your cards
Me: &lt;sigh&gt; Can I have the floor please?

At this point, I'm thinking I have 50:50 chance of saving this $60. A reasonable floorman might determine this was not an angleshot of any kind. Again, I did not go FORWARD with my chips, just the same place I ALWAYS shuffle my chips, and anyone would for that matter. In addition, (I don't know if this matters) there was no action left behind me, as she was all-in and we were HU (does this even matter?)

I keep pretty quiet as the dealer explains my "angleshot" to the floorwoman. She looks at me, and I re-enact the sequence of events.

FLOORWOMAN: That's not a call, I don't believe that was binding action.
ME: Thank you.
FLOORWOMAN: You're welcome.

I muck my hand.

The dealer himself begins to argue with the floor!

DEALER: Oh that's not right! Oh that's terrible! Everyone at the table agrees with me. Blah Blah Blah.
ME: Can we play the next hand please?

Now ANOTHER PLAYER (AP) gets involved, and here's where it gets interesting...

AP: Is there anyone here above you?
FLOOR: What do you mean?
AP: Who is your boss?
FLOORWOMAN: Hang on.

Another floorman comes over. We go through the same process with him. Original floorwoman is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.

NEW FLOORMAN: Were the chips in front of the cards?
ME: I don't know, it was close.
DEALER: They were definitely in front of his cards
OTHER PLAYER: He has to call!
BB: He has to call!
DEALER: He has to call!
NEW FLOORMAN: You have to call the bet sir.
ME: My hand is in the muck, there is no way I'm calling this now.
NEW FLOORMAN: Why did you muck?
ME: I got a ruling, it was my turn to act, I chose not to call the $60, I mucked.

Get this...

NEW FLOORMAN: What did you have? ( [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img])
ME: I don't remember

Now he has a little "confrence" with yet another floorman. He comes back after about 10 seconds and says....

"Either call the $60 or you can rack up and leave the game"

As I'm racking my chips I hear him say under his breath "He'll never be allowed back here, don't worry". BB tells the floor she's gonna call the gaming commission.


Was all this warranted?

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

i tell the floor man to go blow himself, rack up and moon him on the way out

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer himself begins to argue with the floor!

DEALER: Oh that's not right! Oh that's terrible! Everyone at the table agrees with me. Blah Blah Blah

[/ QUOTE ]

This dealer needs a big shot of Al Capone Jr's kick-in-the-nuts.

And the 2nd floor who came over should have abided by the first floor's decision. You don't just come in and change a ruling on a judgement call. Otherwise you'd end up with a neverending stream of complaints and players constantly requesting another floor to come over and make a ruling, hoping that THIS time the floor will rule in their favor.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

Call $60 bucks with no cards or be kicked out? Write a short letter to the gaming commission and send a copy to the poker room. I'll ghost write it for you if you would like.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call $60 bucks with no cards or be kicked out? Write a short letter to the gaming commission and send a copy to the poker room. I'll ghost write it for you if you would like.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also yell "this [expetive deleted] sucks" as I leave and tell everyone you know who plays there about it.

You did stress to the floor man that another floor person already ruled right?

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

Usually calling involves moving your chips forward...not moving your cards behind them.

So many reasons to play on the Internet...

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

Whenever the second floor asked me what cards I had, I would have told them whatever the two cards were that would make the best possible hand at the time.

Holy friggin\' cow, get my boots
 

Dude, my foot would be SORE from all the kicking people in the friggin' nuts I would have to do after this one!

First off, let's start here...

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer himself begins to argue with the floor!


[/ QUOTE ]

All was fine up until this point! OOF! Kick!

Instant write up as far as I am concerned. Hell, you can burn down the cash podium and I won't write you up for it, but arguing with the floor is grounds for a good nut kicking, and some rather "unpleasant" paperwork to boot!

[ QUOTE ]
Now ANOTHER PLAYER (AP) gets involved

[/ QUOTE ]

Grounds for an instantaneous and robust nut kicking!

[ QUOTE ]
NEW FLOORMAN: Why did you muck?
ME: I got a ruling, it was my turn to act, I chose not to call the $60, I mucked.

Get this...

NEW FLOORMAN: What did you have?

[/ QUOTE ]

BLAM!!! KICK!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Now he has a little "confrence" with yet another floorman

[/ QUOTE ]

OMFG batman! So I'm kicking 'em and I'm kicking 'em and I'm kicking 'em!!! The floor's decision is FINAL!!!!! F-I-N-A-L!!! Right or wrong, once it's decided, that's IT!!! KICK!!

[ QUOTE ]
"Either call the $60 or you can rack up and leave the game"


[/ QUOTE ]

Now that you've gotten a decision, and your hand is mucked, this does seem rather ludicrous!

Holy cow batman, my foot is sore.

I hope you learned one important lesson here - the "betting line" when there is no official betting line is the imaginary line in front of your cards. Although your nuts wouldn't be nearly as sore as some other people's in this situation, I hope you'll at least remember that in the future.

al

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whenever the second floor asked me what cards I had, I would have told them whatever the two cards were that would make the best possible hand at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have said "why? how could that possibly matter?".

Re: Holy friggin\' cow, get my boots
 

[ QUOTE ]

Grounds for an instantaneous and robust nut kicking!



[/ QUOTE ]

Robust...I love it.

The original floor ruling is final. The dealer definitely deserves a kick in the nuts for arguing with the floor, the second floorperson deserves a kick in the nuts for reversing the original floor's decision. So basically, what I'm trying to say is, what Al Capone said...

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

Standard Harrah's poker management. Clueless.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

FLOORWOMAN: That's not a call, I don't believe that was binding action.
ME: Thank you.
FLOORWOMAN: You're welcome.

Hand over. When the second floorperson came over, and when they asked you to either pay the $60 or leave, I would have demanded to see the first floorperson who said what she had said above.

In retrospect, when they asked you what you had, you could have said (truthfully), "nothing, I had bluff-bet and had no intention of calling the raise, none whatsoever."

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

Go back there tonight.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

I have been seeing a lot of reference on-line to this business about chips in front of cards being a bet. I can't imagine this rule being put in place in any well run room. It sounds like somebody somewhere saw forward motion and didn't really understand it. If a room as a forward motion rule it is pretty easy to understand, if you bring your chips forward and it looks like you want to put them in the pot they go in the pot. Some rooms have a rule that you must actually release them into the pot. For limit poker forward motion is a better rule (you already know the amount of bets and raises). For no limit and pot limit betting a released into the pot is a better ruls as you are permitted to return to your stack for more chips (note: many, many inexperienced people in poker management do not know you may return to your stack in NL and PL, this presents a problem when they are the ones making/interpreting the rules).

Oh and in the OP's situation the dealer should be suspeneded for arguing with the floor after she made a decision.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

you handled the situation very well.

Honestly, after reading B&amp;M you'd think that the people working the floor at most poker rooms had [censored] for brains.

and the dealer has to get over himself.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

I hate this cards past a chip is a bet rule. In one Las Vegas room I saw the follwing happen:

A player had placed a single chip on the top of his cards to protect them. There was a bet to him and he decided to look at his cards again. With one hand he slid the the chip forard and picked up the edge of the cards. You guessed, -- it was called a bet because the single chip went forawrd past the edge of his cards.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

Thank you all for responding. In honor of Al, my nut kicking should have been fast and furious.

I think I was just so surprised I actually got a ruling in my favor, (original one anyway) that I didn't want to rock the boat with unecessary nut kicking. I never get rulings...2+2'er dopp16 can back me up on that one.

Just an example.....

Came home from a business trip to California. 3 straight nights of Commerce action. Playing 6-12 with Dopp16 at the Trop on my first night back home.

I look at red AK UTG. In my best asian accent, I announce "I LAY" (like a jackass) and throw $11 out. I failed to grab that bottom white chip. Dealer says, "What the hell is LAY?", throws a red bird back at me, and tells UTG +1 "6 to call." I say, "Oh come on, I announced a raise". I call the floor over. Floor says, "What the hell is LAY? The bet is 6".

5 people saw the flop of 10 9 7 all blue

nuff said

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

This incident is a perfect illustration of why a betting line marked on the table should become standard everywhere. Provides a very clear "point of no return", and takes unnecessary guesswork away from the dealer.

All that said, the way the staff handled this is mind-boggling stupid. The one I really can't figure out is the friggin' dealer; once the first floor ruled, why would he care enough to actually begin arguing, and to go grab a second floor? That's pretty suspicious...I think I would have left the game immediately even if I'd gotten a favorable ruling from the second floor.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

[ QUOTE ]
This incident is a perfect illustration of why a betting line marked on the table should become standard everywhere. Provides a very clear "point of no return", and takes unnecessary guesswork away from the dealer.


[/ QUOTE ]

A betting line solves nothing and creates additional problems. A player comes forward with some chips and then pulls back, the dealer still has to make a judgment if they crossed the line; whereas, with forward motion it is clear they were coming forward and wanted to bet. The only purpose for a line on the table is to keep the dealers from breaking their backs.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

[ QUOTE ]
5 people saw the flop of 10 9 7 all blue


[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't tell me that a live casino is using the four color deck or I'll have to kick someone in the nuts. What an idiotic idea.

al

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

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I hate this cards past a chip is a bet rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would that be a bet? You have to move your chips in front of the cards, not the other way around.

Re: a ruling from last night (sticky)
 

strike that . . . reverse

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