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- Mid- and High-Stakes Hold'em (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - River laydown (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=289915)

EMP is 19/6 after 238 hands with him. I'm happy for criticism on flop as well as river.

My read was JJ 80% of the time and KK 18 more.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

River: (9 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below: 
MP1 doesn't show.
Outcome: MP1 wins 12 BB. 

Flame away.

Lestat, whaddya say?

JimmyV
Still on a Bit of a Downswing -- 200 BB -- but trying to post through it

Re: River laydown

I would have called . I think there are enough times when he will only have 1 pair to make a call worth it.You would have to be 100% right on your read to lay this down
But what do i know i only just started playing 20/40 1 month ago.
SJG

Re: River laydown

Which pair?

Also, 100% does not exist in poker.

Re: River laydown

The possibility of AK and KQ make this an autocall for me online.

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
The possibility of AK and KQ make this an autocall for me online.

[/ QUOTE ]

These pairs

Re: River laydown

No read on a hand that beats you quite fits:

With KJs, a lot of people would have raised preflop, but this player probably would have limped based on his stats.

With KK, why didn't he 3-bet the turn?

With JJ, why didn't he check the turn?

AA is a possibility, I think. But you can beat that.

Online I pay this off and expect to be beat 90% of the time.

But if you are going to fold it, you chose the right kind of opponent to do it against. It looks like he is a rational player, and not too aggressive based on his preflop stats.

Re: River laydown

Looks like KJ as I'd be a little confused why he cant 3-bet the turn but can now raise the river. But I've seen hands like AA and AK played in this manner, which is why I'm paying off. What are you doing in the hand to begin with though? Just curious Jimmy. Seems like 45s is a muck preflop here in this case.

Mike Emery

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]

With JJ, why didn't he check the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be unacceptable for JJ to check the turn here.

AK might be just possible enough for me to make the crying call. But what is opponent putting me on then? He surely doesn't expect me to fold two pair.

JimmyV

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing in the hand to begin with though? Just curious Jimmy. Seems like 45s is a muck preflop here in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget, the new 2+2 model is to call with 52o when getting 5:1, and surely 54s is better than that. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Seriously, if you're going to call with 54s in the BB out of position vs a tight preflop raiser, it is not because you're hoping to get to bet it out on a K5x flop. The flop sucks for you. The only hands you're ahead of are AQ/AJ/ATs, and you're behind to everything else this guy would raise with. If you're going to play like this, you don't need 5:1 preflop. You need 20:1.

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With JJ, why didn't he check the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be unacceptable for JJ to check the turn here.

AK might be just possible enough for me to make the crying call. But what is opponent putting me on then? He surely doesn't expect me to fold two pair.

JimmyV

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming he's trying to put you on anything. Not always a safe assumption.

lf

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing in the hand to begin with though? Just curious Jimmy. Seems like 45s is a muck preflop here in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget, the new 2+2 model is to call with 52o when getting 5:1, and surely 54s is better than that. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Seriously, if you're going to call with 54s in the BB out of position vs a tight preflop raiser, it is not because you're hoping to get to bet it out on a K5x flop. The flop sucks for you. The only hands you're ahead of are AQ/AJ/ATs, and you're behind to everything else this guy would raise with. If you're going to play like this, you don't need 5:1 preflop. You need 20:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of response really gets me thinking. Most of the biggest winners on here boast a VPIP of nearly 20% in full online games. How the hell do you get it that high, when your calling standards in the BB don't include suited no-gappers in a semi-multiway pot with what seems like a ABC playing opponent?

Not being sarcastic, this is a sincere question.

lf

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing in the hand to begin with though? Just curious Jimmy. Seems like 45s is a muck preflop here in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget, the new 2+2 model is to call with 52o when getting 5:1, and surely 54s is better than that. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Seriously, if you're going to call with 54s in the BB out of position vs a tight preflop raiser, it is not because you're hoping to get to bet it out on a K5x flop. The flop sucks for you. The only hands you're ahead of are AQ/AJ/ATs, and you're behind to everything else this guy would raise with. If you're going to play like this, you don't need 5:1 preflop. You need 20:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of response really gets me thinking. Most of the biggest winners on here boast a VPIP of nearly 20% in full online games. How the hell do you get it that high, when your calling standards in the BB don't include suited no-gappers in a semi-multiway pot with what seems like a ABC playing opponent?

Not being sarcastic, this is a sincere question.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]
Who says my VP$IP is 20? Don't know if I'm one of "the biggest winners" either. Maybe.

I think there are two ways to skin a cat. One is to be relatively loose preflop but then play exceptionally well postflop, keeping in mind that you will now be presented with many tough postflop decisions. The other is to play tighter preflop, but then have easier decisions postflop. I strongly believe that you can be successful either way, but if you choose the first path, you better know what to do postflop, not mindlessly spew chips.

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
How the hell do you get it that high, when your calling standards in the BB don't include suited no-gappers in a semi-multiway pot with what seems like a ABC playing opponent?
lf

[/ QUOTE ]

Nightwish didn't say not to play it, he said not to bet out with it on a K5x flop.

I'm not so sure. Opponent will have the hands Nightwish mentioned that I'm beating something like 20% of the time, and will have hands like 88 and TT that can be bluffed out on an ominous turn that I donkbet another 15% or so. And of course sometimes I catch a card....

Overall of course Nightwish is right, but I think it's worth taking a stab like this maybe a third of the time. AQ wilts sometimes, and clearly this is preferable to check-calling against THAT hand....

Note that I'm getting 5 to 1 preflop; surely I'm not supposed to fold! So do I check-fold on this flop Nightwish? Or do I just call the flop planning to fold the turn unimproved?

JimmyV

Re: River laydown

I also have longshot flush and straight draws. If I bet out the flop I can determine whether I'll be calling the river if I pick up a draw on the turn that I then miss on the river. This flop raise tells me not to get fancy on a later street if the turn is the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the river is a brick.

JimmyV

Re: River laydown

Both preflop and flop play is so marginal either way that it doesn't matter much. If 5-4s is the worst you defend with in 3-way pots with second best position that won't make you broke overnight.

On the flop hero is getting immense odds on taking this down. With SB "behind" to act once more, he might even push villian off some pocket pairs (although of course, not very likely). He has more than enough equity to see the turn here anyway. More than 25% against all of villian's hands apart from K-K.

lars

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
I strongly believe that you can be successful either way, but if you choose the first path, you better know what to do postflop, not mindlessly spew chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might be spewing chips, but I don't think it's mindlessly.

I continue to post despite getting berated so I can get less mindless and less fancy, both.

Thanks for the help, Nightwish -- seriously --

JimmyV

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]

Note that I'm getting 5 to 1 preflop; surely I'm not supposed to fold! So do I check-fold on this flop Nightwish? Or do I just call the flop planning to fold the turn unimproved?

[/ QUOTE ]
Check-call the flop. The PFR will bet, but you want to see what the SB will do too. If the turn doesn't help, check again. The PFR is now not too unlikely to check behind if he doesn't have a K and is afraid of getting check-raised, giving you a free look at the river. And if he bets, you're very likely beat and can fold.

See, very simple.

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I strongly believe that you can be successful either way, but if you choose the first path, you better know what to do postflop, not mindlessly spew chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might be spewing chips, but I don't think it's mindlessly.

I continue to post despite getting berated so I can get less mindless and less fancy, both.

Thanks for the help, Nightwish -- seriously --

JimmyV

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, scratch the "mindless" part. I wasn't trying to be offensive. My apologies.

Re: River laydown

Not offended, just bantering.

Re: River laydown

here jimmy, is exactly how i would play this hand. i hope it helps...and i hope im right.

your opponent is tight. and a very tight raiser. enon just clocked me at 13/10 over a few hundred hands in a new game. i way tighter than the oponent here, but look how high my raise is. if im playing a hand preflop, its 3.333:1 im raising it, or about 76%. this guy is only raising 32% of his hands that are played. this narrows his hand range down significantly, moreso due to his position, although MP is a probably good average raising spot to only be off 1 or 2% from 6.

preflop: folding here i dont think is a great idea. you're getting 5:1 and good relative position on the raiser. i call with 54s here.

flop: if i were the mp player and you bet out like that i'd know about 90% you do not have a king. id at least call the flop if not rais it with any pair i'd raise from EMP. i would also peel one off or maybe raise with AJ and maybe even AT and up b/c im just that sure you dont have JJ-AA or a king. i would reevaluate of course on the turn. also, you dont know whether the sb has a king. so i check this flop. against those players who are that tight you can be assured he is almost always going to bet that flop. then if the sb calls, you can probably fold b/c if sb called he could have a 5 a diamond draw or another pair. if the sb checkraises you can fold. if the sb folds now YOU can checkraise. NOW if i was EMP and i got c'red with Awhatever-i-raised-with id probably see the turn getting 9:1 and decide from there. i might also call with AK and raise the turn. but now you will win with a turn bet a large % of the time that your hand is good AND he's barely getting the odds to call w/ 6 live outs EDIT: also you've vastly increased the % he folds 88-QQ or whatever pair there on the turn to a bet.END EDIT(he's correct to if you pay a river bet off enough of the time, or mistakenly bet the river enough).

turn: clearly now given the previous streets action i would do what you did and c'r. this street is perfect.

river: of course, given the raise on the turn a bet is correct. now the question is, is this guy aggressive enough to raise AA/AK/KQ enough to call? you're getting 12:1 on this call. if you're good only 7.8% of the time you break even by calling. in these spots i err on the side of calling w/ my weak ass two pair rather than fold. i would expect to see KJs much more often than AK/AA/KQ and the others the rest. id say KJ is about an 85-90% favorite here.

i dont see how you think he has JJ...its almost impossible that he calls the turn c'r on a blank w/ that hand. KK would have 3 bet the turn almost every single time b/c of the 1card straight draw and diamond draw. i think you're reads are way way way off. further, as ive noticed in your other posts, i dont like the fact you use "reads" so stringently. just not a good idea and it makes you play worse than you should be playing given your knowledge. unfortunately it works the other way: given your knowledge, you shouldn't be making statements like "my read was JJ 80% etc.." in this case, not only is JJ not anywhere near 80%, but its very very likely less than 5% imo. tight players, unless he's married to every pair he holds, will fold to that turn c'r when the 4h hits almost every single time. so on the river i call. i hate it b/c its one of those single digit margins of error, but i call.

those are my thoughts. hope they help.

-Barron

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
Both preflop and flop play is so marginal either way that it doesn't matter much. If 5-4s is the worst you defend with in 3-way pots with second best position that won't make you broke overnight.

On the flop hero is getting immense odds on taking this down. With SB "behind" to act once more, he might even push villian off some pocket pairs (although of course, not very likely). He has more than enough equity to see the turn here anyway. More than 25% against all of villian's hands apart from K-K.

lars

[/ QUOTE ]

even though it costs more though, i like checkraising b/c since im seeing the turn, i stand a very good chance to knock out 88-QQ on the turn w/ a bet. betting out on the flop makes me think, from EMP's perspective, that hero does not have a k

-Barron

Re: River laydown

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Note that I'm getting 5 to 1 preflop; surely I'm not supposed to fold! So do I check-fold on this flop Nightwish? Or do I just call the flop planning to fold the turn unimproved?

[/ QUOTE ]
Check-call the flop. The PFR will bet, but you want to see what the SB will do too. If the turn doesn't help, check again. The PFR is now not too unlikely to check behind if he doesn't have a K and is afraid of getting check-raised, giving you a free look at the river. And if he bets, you're very likely beat and can fold.

See, very simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

check calling is not my favorite flop action. worse than that if you plan to check fold a turn like the 7c. the problem is if i were EMP i would 100% follow through w/ ATs and better no pair due to the simple call. playing this way will cost money against players like that.

-Barron