finally got one just right?
 

80-160 commerce good must move 3rd game. full table. i have QQ in the bb. 2 off the button openraises. i dont know him but he seems to play too many hands and play too passively. folded to me and i 3 bet, he calls.

i bet the flop dark. it's 872 rainbow. he calls.

i bet the turn dark. it's a T. there's a little glint of hope in his eye when he sees the card and calls. btw one great thing about betting in the dark is you can focus completely on your opponent's face at the moment they first see the new card.

i wait to see the river card before betting. i dont want to see a J, T, 9, or 6 pop up and then have bet dark and have him raise me. that doesnt mean i wont bet any of those cards it just means i want to see what comes before deciding what to do.

it's an 8. i now realise that he will see my waiting to bet as weakness so i check. plus i think he has a T. so he calls for time and starts getting this cocky look on his face and he asks me "AK eh?" and i just tap the table as a check again and dont say anything. he bets, i checkraise his ass, and he autocalls. mhig.

did i finally get one right from start to finish?

Re: finally got one just right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw one great thing about betting in the dark is you can focus completely on your opponent's face at the moment they first see the new card.

[/ QUOTE ]
can't you do that w/o betting in the dark?
they dont flash the new card and then take it away, you can look at it after your opponent [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Wow, you really owned that guy. I think this might be my favorite mike l. hand.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

I told you he plays great.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

I personally don't like it when a strong player bets in the dark, it signifies a lot of strength and above that the bettor is also gauging where other opponents thinks he stands. Unless I flop a big hand or draw, I usually wind up laying my marginal hands down.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

In the old days your play would entice me to make exactly the same bonehead move your opponent made but because I've been burned so many times before I'd just check behind you, feeling as if I'd won a moral victory when you show down the winner but feeling like dog crap if you showed down AK or some other loser.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Brilliantly played river mike except for the his-ass part.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Umm ok, i am no where near a high limit player,but can you please tell me what was going through your mind? I am not very good at the whole checkraise for value with nut no pair thing.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

mike didn't have the nut no-pair. He had pocket queens.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

"i now realise that . . . did i finally get one right from start to finish?"

If you didn't realize something until near the end, you couldn't have played it right from start to finish. Playing it right from start to finish involves a plan from start to finish, not something realized at the end.

However . . .

Having said that, I agree with Tommy. Wonerfully played river, except for the I-can-out-cocky-his-cocky-ass crap.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Except that the opponent kind of expects you to look at him when you've bet dark. You don't have to worry about being surreptitious for fear he sees you looking at him. And they usually don't bother looking at you when you've bet dark.

Yes n/m
 

^

Re: finally got one just right?
 

I need to work on my reading comprehension.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

"except for the his-ass part."

im starting to think this might be one of those things that works really well for me, but not at all for you.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

"except for the I-can-out-cocky-his-cocky-ass crap."

when im in this frame of mind i play better. period. when i take it personally it may hurt more but it helps me make better decisions. i lay down correctly more. that's my biggest leak, calling too much when it's obvious im beat. so when i really resent paying people off i do it much less. it also means feeling cocky enough to leave games when ive decided i dont have the sort of edge i want. does that make sense? it sure does to me.

what works well for me may seriously hurt others. for me frame of mind is everything, it's just a very different frame of mind than what you and tommy aim for and achieve. the zen thing dont work for me. ive zenned myself out of all sorts of chips sitting there feeling very peaceful as i got outplayed, outdrawn, and felt nothing, felt no emergency switch flip. that emergency switch does not have to mean tilt, it can just mean adjusting. the way i naturally play looks like tilt anyway so i dont need to ever actually tilt.

ive been listening to you and more so tommy tell me how to do it for so long and been trying to emulate and you know what? it's not working for me. when im in my own gear and my own comfort zone (which is to make others uncomfortable, and im just talking about the game and loose postflop raises and bread and butter laydowns and stuff here, not body odor or cussing or sociopathic commerce type stuff) i play my best and my results are the strongest. when i play in some sort of mode where im trying to practice some sort of funky tommyesque restraint (and again it's way overemphasized in his writing, the guy sprays chips if our vegas sessions meant anything) it feels unnatural and i dont do as well. of course saying this means i cant complain to him next time i go bust. but i feel the getting to this point is super crucial.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

" personally don't like it when a strong player bets in the dark, it signifies a lot of strength"

see but your smart. and this guy did not see me as a strong player. he saw me as a tilted kid who couldnt play. id been raising every fourth hand or whatever per my normal routine. so he mistook my blind betting as a challenge to him to outplay me. that's why made the bad call on the flop and the value bet on the river. and paid me off.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Yeah, I gotcha. What might work for me or for Tommy or for anybody doesn't necessarily have to be right for you. I just think it makes logical sense that an objective attitude, cooly analyzing a situation, rather than reacting emotionally, would yield better results. Then again, for you, being rough and tumble in one sense may activate your other senses and make your antennae more in tune with the game.

It's hard for me to believe that not making lay downs properly is your biggest leak. I could see this being the case if you were a big bet poker player, especially in no-limit, but not in limit for a player of your caliber. But it's interesting, comparing this with what I think is most other players' problem. For most players, I think, it's cockiness that makes them call too many hands and stay in a game when they shouldn't. I don't doubt for a minute that it works in an opposite manner for you.

Regards,
Andy

Re: finally got one just right?
 

I'll leave out my own boring thoughts since its already been discussed plenty, but I love the play.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

This looks like a good spot to routinely call figuring to auto check-raise the flop. Instead of putting you on a big pair or AK he'll put you on a pair of flopped 6s, and that just HAS to be a good thing. Notice in this case he'll raise the turn when he makes top pair, letting you 3-bet him.

Don't know about betting dark, unless you know that it will manipulate THIS opponent in some specific manner that is beneficial to you. I don't believe I've EVER done it, although I have often auto-bet after the flop but without looking (since I was studing the opponent as the flop came down).

Check-raise good on the end for the reasons you didn't say: he'll bet the hand you figure he'll call with.

- Louie

Re: finally got one just right?
 

"It's hard for me to believe that not making lay downs properly is your biggest leak."

dont make me embarass myself on here anymore than i already do. just trust me on this one: i call way way way way way way way too much. it's symptomatic of trying to play in such a way that no one ever believes i have a hand; i never believe anyone else ever does either.

always love your thoughts and your great understanding andy.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Riveting hand. Was the purpose to tell us how you got your enemy at the table wiht a checkraise on the river instead of betting out. I fail to see the importance of posting this riveting hand. The brilliance of betting out in the dark? YOU DA MAN! lol

Re: finally got one just right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Riveting hand. Was the purpose to tell us how you got your enemy at the table wiht a checkraise on the river instead of betting out. I fail to see the importance of posting this riveting hand. The brilliance of betting out in the dark? YOU DA MAN! lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Not content with with being intensely disliked in just one forum, eh?

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Just a note: I think this hand was a beauty. One nice thing about it is that here betting regardless of what comes on the Flop (and the Turn, given the flop that was seen) is probably correct so the dark betting is not giving up that much if anything. Plus it gains psychologically against this type of opponent.

The river checkraise is perfect in this situation.

Yup Mike L. you finally got one right! Wish I could get more right like this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm not sure which Tommy and Andy are objecting to: the river check-raise or the terminology you used with the check-raise. Actually, given their profiles, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Tommy was objecting to the river check-raise while Andy was objecting to the terminology;-) Andy of course could have been objecting to both equally. Guess I'll have to go back and reread their posts; it's been a couple days.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

If you liked that one check out the section on Bad Beats.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

The temple I used to go to had a few Zen masters staying there. They had their own personalities but most of them were very placid and peaceful, walking around with smiles on their faces most of the time. I think if someone burst in and put a gun to their head, they would just smile that same peaceful smile at him. I thought of them as bobbing along in the sea of emotion.

There was one master who yelled a lot. He would storm into the meditation room and yell. He would whack people with a stick and call them lazy. He would bang his stick on the ground and call someone stupid if they answered his question wrong. I used to think of him as surfing the sea of emotion.

I learned the most from the surfer.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Tommy's post was crystal clear. He said brilliantly played river except for the his-ass part. And I agreed. But see my subsequent posts in response to mike's comments.

I probably have a bit of an advantage over you here in that I know mike personally. I think I know what he's like and, therefore, what serves him well or ill at the table. Tommy also knows and has played with him.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Ok, well I guess I just don't get it then. Mike L. didn't say anything about checkraising his ass at the table, did he? So what is the objection? That he thinks in those terms? That the check-raise might have undesirable metagame effects against this particular opponent? What am I missing that you and Tommy might be thinking since you know Mike L. and I don't?

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Mike doesn't like it when somebody gets that "cocky" look on his face. So instead of deciding whether a check-raise will work by figuring out why the guy has that cocky look, mike is susceptible to going for the check raise jut to try to wipe that cocky look off his face by raising his ass.

Focus and forethought get the job done. Wiping the cocky look off his face by raising his ass doesn't. For most of us. Mike says it does for him.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Welll OK, though the way the story was told it sure seemed that the cocky look on the guy's face combined with his "AK, eh?" made it sound like the the guy was definitely going to bet and the check-raise was going to work. Nothing in the story indicated what you just said, and everything pointed to it being the perfect spot for a check-raise. I don't think Mike's actions or analysis can be faulted here, though you might conceivably fault his motives if you are pretty sure what they were.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

I also think the check-raise was perfect (as did Tommy). It's the talk about the guy being cocky and the "raise his ass" comments that, to me, kept mike from getting things "just right." Objective analysis is what get things right, not wanting to "get" someone. But mike claims being like this makes him play sharper. I have my doubts, but if it is indeed so, then that works for mike and that's great.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

"Focus and forethought get the job done. Wiping the cocky look off his face by raising his ass doesn't. "

you realise of course this is simplistic to the point of being inaccurate and it's a combination of both that i have working for me? right?

the mike l. style/attitude
 

"It's the talk about the guy being cocky and the "raise his ass" comments that, to me, kept mike from getting things "just right.""

maintaining a level of disdain for my opponents at the table enables me to better take their money, and to better avoid giving them mine.

when someone gets brave against me and value bets i relish the opportunity to punish them for their error. i like to control the games im in, i like to be the center of attention. i want them to be out to get me because in their clumsy miguided attempts to do so they will end up only making things worse for themselves and making my job easier, which is to take their money.

im young, im aggressive, people naturally dont trust me at poker. rather than rebel against that i try and find ways to enhance that and play off that image. i always get paid off. it takes someone like tommy to ignore me and not pay me off and get huffed and lose EV, and tommys are very few and far between. this has been a successful mode of play for me for several years now and im getting better at it every month. i like to be melodramatic on here and schizo and stuff because it makes for funny posts, but im quite serious when i tell you ive never been more comfortable and pleased with my style of play and the results im getting from it.

there's more but youll just have to wait for the book. i greatly admire the ways tommy and andy get the job done by killing them with kindness, and i do not advocate rude or obnoxious behavior at the table. but attitude, an attitude quite different from the one tommy and andy advocate, is critical to my success as a player and im glad i could share some of my ideas about it today.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

I don't see that those two things are mutually exclusive in this specific hand.

Re: the mike l. style/attitude
 

I can't wait for the book. Really.

Regards,
Andy

Re: finally got one just right?
 

I don't think it's possible to do the second without doing the first. But it is possible to do the first without doing the second. And, yes, I do realize you have both working for you.

Perhaps I'm just jealous.

Re: the mike l. style/attitude
 

The external stuff is all well and good. You should say and do whatever you think maximizes your edge versus your opponents. From what I have read of all Tommy's post's and essays, his key to playing tiltless poker is taking all ego and emotion out of his decision making. If your internal thinking is "I'm check raising his ass", it indicates emotion or ego are still involved in the decision. Whereas if your internal thinking is "a checkraise is the proper play here" and you say "I'm checkraising your ass" because you think it increases your edge it would be fine. Just my read on it.

Re: finally got one just right?
 

Fantastic. I think it was perfect. Two big bets with all the cards out and an overpair that is way good. I just bet here almost all of the time, and the other times I check call to induce a bluff. The river check raise is great, I am trying to get more value on the river and I need to start making plays like this.

FJM