Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

At the MGM in the NL1/2 game Christmas Day there was like $12 in the pot, 6 limpers, no betting along the way, an ace hits the river, and someone makes a $5 bet. I have a crappy ace but for $5 I'm gonna call, everybody else folds.

The guy who put in the original $5 bet then tosses his cards face down to the dealer. I figure he made a stupid bet and knows it and is surrendering, so I'm putting a $1 chip on my cards and pushing 'em forward when the dealer pushes the cards back to the guy and says "you were called". Guy says "oh!" and flips 'em over showing a better ace than mine.

ok... It was a tiny pot. No big deal. But I quietly asked "why didn't you just push me the pot?" and the dealer said "he obviously hadn't seen you had called." I said no more.

But what's the rule? The guy tossed his cards far past the yellow betting line face down. They hadn't hit the muck. And he didn't ask for them back. Dealer just offered them. If this happens again with $500 in the pot I'm gonna care a lot more.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

If you were in the one seat and your opponent was in the 10 seat, this makes a little sense.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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If you were in the one seat and your opponent was in the 10 seat, this makes a little sense.

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Nope. Not even close. He was in the 4 seat, me in the 7. $5 chip was out there just past the yellow line, clearly visible. Cards were on the table, clearly visible.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

This is just another example of a dealer doing to much. His job isn't to decide if a player saw that he was called. His job is to push the pot to the winner and you clearly won when he mucked.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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But what's the rule?

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The rule is the best hand wins at showdown.

For some reason the dealer could tell this player was expecting the pot to be pushed to him so he pointed out he had been called.

If I am dealing I am mucking the cards as soon as they are thrown forward unless it is clear fromt he player's action (speech, gestures etc) that he is expecting the pot.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

Do you really want poker hands decided because a player makes a mistake about whether another player called or not.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

yes because others will not extend the rule to you.

i would like to hear the ruling on this if the player just pushed his card face down. Isn't this the same as mucking your hand when you're called?

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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ok... It was a tiny pot. No big deal. But I quietly asked "why didn't you just push me the pot?" and the dealer said "he obviously hadn't seen you had called." I said no more.



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I notice all good dealers clearly announce any and all action. It appears this dealer did not.

Is it a "rule" that dealers must announce all action or is it just a courtesy extended by the best dealers?

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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ok... It was a tiny pot. No big deal. But I quietly asked "why didn't you just push me the pot?" and the dealer said "he obviously hadn't seen you had called." I said no more.



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I notice all good dealers clearly announce any and all action. It appears this dealer did not.

Is it a "rule" that dealers must announce all action or is it just a courtesy extended by the best dealers?

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Although I often announce a call or a check if I think it will keep the action moving, I have generally understood that a dealer is expected to only announce bets/raises.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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Although I often announce a call or a check if I think it will keep the action moving, I have generally understood that a dealer is expected to only announce bets/raises.

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This is generally correct. On the end it is appropiate to say "he called you" to the player that bet when he is called in exactly one spot both to be sure he saw the call and to let him know it is time to show the cards.

edit to add: In a high limit game the dealer should be silent unless he needs to say something. Example if the dealer announces a bet in a 300-600 more than one player will say "shut the [censored] up and deal."

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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I notice all good dealers clearly announce any and all action. It appears this dealer did not.

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If they are announcing all action they are horrible dealers and over calling the game. Examples: when a player checks the delar shoudl move the action along with his eys, if the dealer announces check two or three more players might check before he gets it out of his mouth.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

My definition and your definition of a horrible dealers are obviously different. I don't believe there is such a thing as overcalling action. Especially in $1-$2 NL, the dented-up 1985 Camaro of poker.

Dealers announcing checks & calls gives a sense of pride in his/her chosen profession.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

The best hand won, nits.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

I don't know, but I do know that the way I see it is this:

When you "call" a bet, you are paying for the right to see if a hand is better than yours. He clearly thought he was good, and casually threw his cards in. Dealer politely points out that he was called, and has to showdown. He had a better ace, and won. He didn't muck in frustration like some do, but just threw his cards not realizing someone paid for the right to see if he was good.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

Haha. Fur seat covers, baby. Don't forget.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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At the MGM in the NL1/2 game Christmas Day there was like $12 in the pot, 6 limpers, no betting along the way, an ace hits the river, and someone makes a $5 bet. I have a crappy ace but for $5 I'm gonna call, everybody else folds.

The guy who put in the original $5 bet then tosses his cards face down to the dealer. I figure he made a stupid bet and knows it and is surrendering, so I'm putting a $1 chip on my cards and pushing 'em forward when the dealer pushes the cards back to the guy and says "you were called". Guy says "oh!" and flips 'em over showing a better ace than mine.

ok... It was a tiny pot. No big deal. But I quietly asked "why didn't you just push me the pot?" and the dealer said "he obviously hadn't seen you had called." I said no more.

But what's the rule?

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the rule is (a) don't play ace-rag and (b) don't call a $5 bet in a $17 pot with ace-poop.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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My definition and your definition of a horrible dealers are obviously different. I don't believe there is such a thing as overcalling action. Especially in $1-$2 NL, the dented-up 1985 Camaro of poker.

Dealers announcing checks & calls gives a sense of pride in his/her chosen profession.

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It is most likely you play poker in a room with slow dealers. In a game with experienced players a dealer announcing "check" creates confusion. Seat one checks, seat two and the delaer are able to see this at the same time so as the dealer announces check seat two bets, now it is seat 3's action an he is confused because the delaer just said it was checked when there is a bet on the table.

Rooms where the delaers announce "check" typically have dealers, floorstaff, and a manger that have never been in a professionally managed poker room.

edit to add: The confusion does not exist in a room with all new players where the game moves slow. That is seat one acts, dealer tells the table what happened then seat 2 acts, etc but as you move up in limits the delaer is often teh last person to know what the current action is; that is with new dealers if they look to see what is on the board they might miss it being checked around (note to new dealers: don't look at the board and try to "play along," you will deal much more efficiently if you put the cards in place without ever looking down to see what is on the board).

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

The appropriate thing is to announce any and all CHANGES in action. If one player checks and 3 right behind him check theirs no need to say it 4 times.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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The appropriate thing is to announce any and all CHANGES in action. If one player checks and 3 right behind him check theirs no need to say it 4 times.

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This is consistent with the advice given above of announcing bets and raises. This would only apply up to about 20-40 (maybe 40-80 with the recent inflation in poker).

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

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Example if the dealer announces a bet in a 300-600 more than one player will say "shut the [censored] up and deal."

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The first time this happens, the dealer should warn the player that dealer harrassment will not be tolerated. Second offense, the floor gets called IMHO.

I know this doesn't happen in the real world, but I still have no idea why higher limit players are allowed to abuse the staff. If a player has an issue with a dealer he should discuss it with the floor in a civilized manner instead of saying "shut the [censored] up and deal."

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

[ QUOTE ]
At the MGM in the NL1/2 game Christmas Day there was like $12 in the pot, 6 limpers, no betting along the way, an ace hits the river, and someone makes a $5 bet. I have a crappy ace but for $5 I'm gonna call, everybody else folds.

The guy who put in the original $5 bet then tosses his cards face down to the dealer. I figure he made a stupid bet and knows it and is surrendering, so I'm putting a $1 chip on my cards and pushing 'em forward when the dealer pushes the cards back to the guy and says "you were called". Guy says "oh!" and flips 'em over showing a better ace than mine.


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Saw it done "right" tonight. At the Alladin a guy bets on the river and the lady ponders a bit and says "I have a bad feeling about this--I think you have J9" and then says "I call" and tosses out her chips. Original bettor tosses his cards face down to the dealer who instantly grabs and mucks them like I think he's supposed to. And then pushes the pot to the lady. Which generates a huge eruption from the guy. "NO! The pot is mine! She folded!" "No sir, she called" "NO! I had the straight! I had the straight! That's my pot! Call the floor!" Too bad, so sad.

Re: Mistaken muck returned by dealer
 

Yeah, if I'm playing like an $80/160 live... those dealers are quick as hell to muck cards, as they should be.

If they aren't, the players are going to let them hear about it.

Unfortunately, I don't see this at $20/40-40/80 as much =(