KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

Villian is 31/14/1.56

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (7.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

You're probably beat on the flop, but if you're gonna stay in, I'd raise it, not call with it.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

I was probably just going to call down.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

I think I would raise the flop and expect to fold to a reraise. The raise will allow him to check to you on the turn/river, so that you can take a free showdown and save yourself 1/2 bet for the hand. Folding is a close second on the flop due to the small size of the pot. Calling is not an option here.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

Raising the flop is best, folding the flop against a player with those stats is in my opinion quite weak/tight play @1/2.

I would fold to a 3-bet. If he called my raise and the turn was a spade I would find it hard to bet. This way you allow him to bluff into you on the river and you also don't get c/r by a player who may have bet out a flush draw.

You can then make your nut flush draw and raise him on the river.

Raise flop / fold to a 3-bet. Check turn when called on a spade turn otherwise bet and fold to c/r. Call river bet on no flush, bet/raise river with flush.

True

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

take the free showdown. He isn't folding his Ace for one bet and the flush didn't come in.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

Folding this HU anywhere is not a good plan. The pot odds justify seeing the river. Plus, you have a BD flush draw and 2 outs for a set.

Just call him down. Just because there is an A on the board doesn't mean you are beat. He could have a flush draw, straight draw, a PP or some crap and betting an A scare card.

I think a call down is better than raising any of the streets because a raise exposes you to a 3-bet he could pull with a pair + flush draw or straight draw type hand. It would be a fairly big mistake to fold a winning hand to a 3-bet in this situation. Also, a raise by you may cause him to shut-down like he did as he did in this hand. Here, you got just as much out of him as you did by calling down, BUT, you put youself in a spot to get bluffed out by a frisky 3-bet.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

On the turn I like a call and a call only.

If he has the A, he ain't folding, so we're putting in extra bets with the worst hand.

If had was betting a FD on the flop, it just came in, but we have a redraw, so again don't want to put more bets in.

If he was donking a middle pair or complete air, you've got him good most of the time and you'd like him to keep betting.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

How is the raise on the turn a "free" showdown? You still pay 2 BB's and risk getting reraised on the Turn and no showdown.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

I think the turn raise is really bad. I might raise for a free showdown if I think that I might make someone fold a better hand or if I know that villain has the best of the outs. In this case I think neither is true.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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If he has the A, he ain't folding, so we're putting in extra bets with the worst hand.


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If we're not folding then the turn raise seems fine to me. As with the earlier fsd thread, knowing your players is of the utmost importance. But if this guy is incapable of 3 betting this turn with less than a flush, then the raise is fine I think.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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If we're not folding then the turn raise seems fine to me. As with the earlier fsd thread, knowing your players is of the utmost importance. But if this guy is incapable of 3 betting this turn with less than a flush, then the raise is fine I think.


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Why? I seriously doubt that we have villain beat after his turn bet greater than 50% of the time.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has the A, he ain't folding, so we're putting in extra bets with the worst hand.


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If we're not folding then the turn raise seems fine to me. As with the earlier fsd thread, knowing your players is of the utmost importance. But if this guy is incapable of 3 betting this turn with less than a flush, then the raise is fine I think.

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Why? What hands is villain likely to have? We need to fold a better hand (not likely) or have a better hand a decent portion of the time. The crux is how often are we better? And when we are, how often does he have a hand that is drawing slim that might just fold, but could bet the river or check/call it?

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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How is the raise on the turn a "free" showdown? You still pay 2 BB's and risk getting reraised on the Turn and no showdown.

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Villain calls turn, checks river. If he makes a K/flush he can bet river gaining an extra bet than if he had just called on the turn and got checked to on the river.

I don't like it because the times he 3-bets you however that was the logic behind it. The way he played it however I don't think he gets 3-bet that often and has a large amount of fold equity (@OP this doesn't work that much at 1/2 party however).

I think calling down sucks in comparison to raise / folding unless you have a specific aggro read on opponent (3-bets with FD on flop) If you call down he has to bet to river all the time without an A and he has to bet the flop &gt;50% without an A.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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I think the turn raise is really bad. I might raise for a free showdown if I think that I might make someone fold a better hand or if I know that villain has the best of the outs. In this case I think neither is true.

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Thinking about it now, I doubt an opponent with these stats would have folded an A in this spot (although she may call with a weaker flush draw, which would be great). I just figured I was seeing the showdown anyway and managed to pick up a fairly strong draw on the turn.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just figured I was seeing the showdown anyway and managed to pick up a fairly strong draw on the turn.

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The strong draw you pick up makes calling on the turn even more profitable. Most of the time, it allows you to put in that second bet on the river when you make your hand rather than putting it in on the turn when you haven't.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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The strong draw you pick up makes calling on the turn even more profitable. Most of the time, it allows you to put in that second bet on the river when you make your hand rather than putting it in on the turn when you haven't.

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Doesn't this suggest that you will fold your unimproved hand on the river?

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

This is a straightforward call down if I ever saw one. Raising anywhere sucks except if you hit your flush on the river.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

Ahh, you're right, my bad. I don't think the fsd move is done for fold equity so much as it is the possibility that hero is ahead with outs if not ahead. I don't think hero is ever ahead here making this a bad spot to raise the turn. My bad.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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Doesn't this suggest that you will fold your unimproved hand on the river?

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It depends on the read. Not usually, though, because of the fact that the pot is big and that we haven't raised on any of the streets to allow villain to define his hand.

I don't even think it matters on the turn whether we are ahead or behind. I think it's more +EV to just call there anyway, as if we are ahead, it's pretty doubtful that villain will catch us or call the river raise.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

I like the turn raise. If another spade comes BB will probably check and hero won't make 2 bets on the river.
Turn raise can fold an Ax, not often, but can. The board got really scary on the turn. If hero improves, he'll make another BB (or sometimes even 2) on the river by betting.
With this board on the turn hero is getting a free showdown most of the time.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

Typically in these situations, the goal is to get to the showdown as cheap as possible. It might have been possible that calling the turn would have gotten me a free showdown ayway, due to the nature of the board.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

Excellent discussion, and thanks again to the participants.

I think that either raising the flop, or calling down the whole way were the best lines.

Villian shows 88 (no spade) and MHIG.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

I'm having trouble figuring out why raising the flop is good.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

If I was going to raise somewhere, I think it should have been the flop.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

So you are saying you should have raised the flop? Or, if you are going to raise, it should be on the flop?

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you are saying you should have raised the flop? Or, if you are going to raise, it should be on the flop?

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The latter.

What do you think is best?

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

You have too much hand to consider folding HU against this opponent. So, what is the best way to get to showdown? Raising the flop is very bad, imo. If you are ahead, you don't have to worry about too many outs against you (except a flush draw, obviously). However, there is a very good chance the raise makes him fold a hand with very few outs. If behind, you are charging yourself the max to get to showdown. I call, call, call unless I improve.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

In a nutshel:

Raising this hand costs you bets when you're ahead.
Raising this hand costs you bets when you're behind.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

WA/WB, call down. I don't really care for when people post a bunch of hands at once. A turn raise would only be good if you thought he was drawing a large majority of the time and that he would't threebet with less than an ace. Then you get a free showdown. In this case, he hit his flush if he was drawing so I don't like the turn raise.

I just realized this is 1/2. If this were a more advanced hand I would say it would belong here, but I don't think this does. How did you get so many posts and yet you still post 4 hands at 1/2 in SS.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

I think a raise on the flop here is the best play. What are the likely hands your opponent is on?

A-rag: In this case, he will call your flop raise, check/call your turn bet, and check allowing you to check for a free showdown. You lose out on 2 Big Bets.

Two pair or a strong ace: In this case he will reraise you on the flop, which you can safely fold. You lose out on 1 Big Bet.

Check/Calling will lose 2.5 Big Bets if he has the A.

If you have the bettor beaten at the time (he is on a draw or has middle pair), you may win the pot right there or you may get some more bets out of him on the flop and turn. Does anyone disagree with this?

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a raise on the flop here is the best play. What are the likely hands your opponent is on?

A-rag: In this case, he will call your flop raise, check/call your turn bet, and check allowing you to check for a free showdown. You lose out on 2 Big Bets.

Two pair or a strong ace: In this case he will reraise you on the flop, which you can safely fold. You lose out on 1 Big Bet.

Check/Calling will lose 2.5 Big Bets if he has the A.

If you have the bettor beaten at the time (he is on a draw or has middle pair), you may win the pot right there or you may get some more bets out of him on the flop and turn. Does anyone disagree with this?

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Yes, a lot of hands that donk bet here that you beat are little PP or even undercards UI, ie hands you are way ahead of and would love to allow to keep betting. Also, aggressive opponents may well 3-bet a draw here, so I am not overly eager to fold. I'd rather get to showdown relatively cheaply, calling when he bets, betting when he checks. If you didn't pick up the flush draw and you knew the player loved to bet draws, you might raise the turn and check the river, hoping he's on a straight/flush draw, but as a default I usually just call and bet when checked to.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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How did you get so many posts and yet you still post 4 hands at 1/2 in SS?

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I still have a lot to learn, I guess. Also, I accumulated most of these posts in the psych and theory forums. I didn't really play a lot online before, and I just got both PP and PT, so I'm getting through a ton of hands now, leaving me with a lot of questions. If I have a bunch of questions from a single session, what would be the best way for me to get feedback from the forum?

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a raise on the flop here is the best play. What are the likely hands your opponent is on?

A-rag: In this case, he will call your flop raise, check/call your turn bet, and check allowing you to check for a free showdown. You lose out on 2 Big Bets.

Two pair or a strong ace: In this case he will reraise you on the flop, which you can safely fold. You lose out on 1 Big Bet.

Check/Calling will lose 2.5 Big Bets if he has the A.

If you have the bettor beaten at the time (he is on a draw or has middle pair), you may win the pot right there or you may get some more bets out of him on the flop and turn. Does anyone disagree with this?

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You left out the following senarios:

Senario C: He's bluffing his mid-PP/crap hand: You blow him out of the pot on the flop or turn and only win 1BB.

Senario D: He 3-bets the flop with pair+flush draw or pair+straight draw or staight and flush draw or stone-cold bluff. You fold the turn and lose like 9 BB.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

I suggest that you read all of the other hands in the forum and you will learn alot from them, many of the same theories you learn can be applied to your own hands. Then you don't have to post as many of your own hands at once. If you have a bunch of hands, try and at least space them out, but I suggest reading and replying to alot more hands than you post, you will profit more. I think the micro forum would be a good fit for you. Good luck.