Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Middle of a major no limit holdem tournament. About half the field is gone and your original $2000 is down to $1100. You are the best player at your table but there are no live ones there. Nine handed. 100-200 blinds. You are dealt QJ suited under the gun.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Pass. If I'm the best player at the table, I don't need to be taking big risks like this. Make it AJ and I'll think about it.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

fold

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Information is incomplete. If I am regarded as the numero uno tight-ass image as well as aggressive, and the blinds do not have LARGE stacks, and I have played 10% of the flops, I still may muck.

Or not. I may bet 450-550, but I wont shove all-in.

But then again "it depends". If I think, they think, I think, etc. type of depends, and how often blinds respect raises and how aggressive/passive/loose/tight..the rest of the table is. But generally, tiny edges or coin flips as this hand is should be avoided by the best player at the table. Yet the short stack hurts those circumstances.

Does any of what I just said as I thought it aloud make sense? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Hmmm.... have to move all-in. with $300 in blinds coming next 2 hands, you will be down to $800...

As for rationale:
I assume David is not going to so strongly clash with 'the system' where the 'key number' tells you to move in with any 2 suited cards in this scenario --- so QJ-suited is a virtual monster in this scenario... moreover, the key number will soon have you moving in with ANY 2 cards soon given your short-stack...

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Don't get in this situation. Move in earlier - either on the previous round or earlier in the orbit.

If that was impossible then:

1)If there are many big stacks at your table, pass. Your all-in looks desperate. A medium stack may know this but pass anyway.
2)If there aren't many big stacks, I move in here. If you get called you have decent suckout potential.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Or not. I may bet 450-550, but I wont shove all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother to hold back a pittance? If you're goin' at this point you go all in IMO.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
so QJ-suited is a virtual a monster in this scenario...

[/ QUOTE ]

...according to VVP? "He's picked up a monster hand!"

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or not. I may bet 450-550, but I wont shove all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother to hold back a pittance? If you're goin' at this point you go all in IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right about that. Half your stack generally commits you. It doesn't have to but something unique would have to rear it's head. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

<<...according to VVP? "He's picked up a monster hand!">>

a 'sneaky, tricky hand... suited connectors... hands I love to play'

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

because the 450-550 bet looks strong enough like you are
committed to have better hands but not GREAT hands fold in this spot. Thats is of major importance. Shoving all-in, too often LOOKS like desparation hence someone with AJo may come over the top to isolate you leaving you totally dominated. Yet the player description defines that they are not live ones, so the 1/2 stack raise looks like more of a hand.

As a side note. If I have AA QQ KK in this spot I shove all-in for exactly the same reasons as above.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

I would fold in this spot. It isn't all that debatable. I think you can afford to wait (not long) for a better spot.

You still hold just enough chips to only get called by a better hand if you move in here.

Limping in is also out as you can't afford to bleed any chips off here. If the pot gets raised after you have limped you just end up between a rock and a hard place.

I'm hoping the correct answer isn't "there is not enough information provided". Short of that, folding is the only good option here, IMHO. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

**ADDITION**
David's suggestion that you are the best player at the table is very telling as to the proper course of action.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

So what do you do when someone comes over the top of you? And someone WILL come over the top of that weak bet. You can't fold at that point anyway. What are you gonna do with the pittance you have left. You're blinded out in a few hands anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
because the 450-550 bet looks strong enough like you are
committed to have better hands but not GREAT hands fold in this spot. Thats is of major importance. Shoving all-in, too often LOOKS like desparation hence someone with AJo may come over the top to isolate you leaving you totally dominated. Yet the player description defines that they are not live ones, so the 1/2 stack raise looks like more of a hand.

As a side note. If I have AA QQ KK in this spot I shove all-in for exactly the same reasons as above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Move all-in.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you do when someone comes over the top of you? And someone WILL come over the top of that weak bet. You can't fold at that point anyway. What are you gonna do with the pittance you have left. You're blinded out in a few hands anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. There is a lot of hope in what bigfishhead is suggesting. What your raise "looks like" won't matter to someone holding pocket jacks or AQ anyway.

That is why coming in under the gun with a hand like QJ is rarely a good play at a full table. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

As I suggested...there is much more information to discern. Why is it that most players here always believe it is ONLY "this way" or "that way" based on your cards? Your cards have only a small % of the basis for your actions.

And to those that believe AQ is coming over the top or JJ is: I have folded these hands many times to "the best player at the table UTG raising for 1/2 his stack. Less than 15% of the time have I been wrong in doing so.

AGAIN, IT IS BASED ON IMAGE, PLAYERS, TIGHT/LOOSE-AGGRESSIVE/PASSIVE, STACK SIZES, PROCLIVITY OF BLINDS TO FOLD.

What am I really hoping to do with this hand? Just pick up the blinds for survival to better POSITIONAL bet later.

So as you see... I may muck, I may raise. "It depends".

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

I'm all in every time here. You have enough chips that you're going to pick up the blinds a fair portion of the time and that's just not going to be true if you wait a few hands.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

So you have no real answer then?

There is not enough information to make a decision such as you are suggesting. All us posters have to go by is the question posed by David.

And btw, just because YOU would fold JJ doesn't mean the rest of the table would. Plus, I was just using JJ and AQ as examples. The point is being under the gun automatically puts you in a bad spot. There could be all sorts of big hands in front of you that are going to be more than happy that you've raised them.

Betting half your stack here doesn't get you much at all. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

**ADDITION**
David's suggestion that you are the best player at the table is very telling as to the proper course of action.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

I fold. Pushing and folding are the only options of course. I would rather push with 800 from the button or CO than push UTG for 1100 with QJ. It is highly unlikely that you have the best hand and I don't think, considering that you only have 1100, that better hands will fold here.

Chris

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you have no real answer then? Your answer would be what I think may be correct here.

There is not enough information to make a decision such as you are suggesting. All us posters have to go by is the question posed by David.

And btw, just because YOU would fold JJ doesn't mean the rest of the table would. Plus, I was just using JJ and AQ as examples. The point is being under the gun you are in a bad spot. There could be all sorts of big hands in front of you that are going to be more than happy that you've raised them.

Betting half your stack here doesn't get you much at all. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand EVERYTHING you stated. I totally understand UTG in this spot. I totally understand better hands behind me. You mentioned "There is not enough information to make a decision as you are suggesting" If I understood you coreectly, you are suggesting "I HAVE" made a decision?

Or are you suggestion that "I have stated there is not enough info to make a decision"? Because thats what I mean. It depends on many other situational conditions. Not just math.

Yes the "not just math" comment is my suggestiong that David is basing the answer on strictly math. As I believe he does in these type posts 90% of the time. Lack of creativity and deeper thought of conditions and players is a weakness in his posts. IMO. It isnt always "JUST MATH". But I do love the math he brings to the plate also!!!

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes the "not just math" comment is my suggestiong that David is basing the answer on strictly math. As I believe he does in these type posts 90% of the time. Lack of creativity and deeper thought of conditions and players is a weakness in his posts. IMO. It isnt always "JUST MATH". But I do love the math he brings to the plate also!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point. I was using this thread to respond specifically to David's question. Not to debate whether the question should have beeen posed the way it was in the first place. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

So everytime you get shortstacked UTG just about to post a good chunk of your stack you get afraid someone may have JJ? Push, if someone wakes up with a hand, fine.

After Further Review...
 

It should also be noted that being at the table with "no live ones" means that you aren't going to be getting equity from the pot to make it worth the gamble of QJ suited.

I say that, because we know that if we get called we are beat. What is worse is the fact that we will only get called by 1 person who surely has us in bad shape.

That does not mean that it would never be correct to move all in with QJ suited. But at a full table with tight players it becomes quite incorrect. After all, you don't even gain much if everyone happens to fold.

That's my take on it. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

I would wait since I have been pissing away my chips too often in situations like this. Also, a smart player might see that you are about to take the blinds and play a marginal hand because he thinks you are desperate.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

I agree that the point of being the best player at the table is an important aspect of this question but not from a standpoint of out playing the others.
If you are best, others are inferior and a couple may suck. No matter what your image or the table psychology, the bad players do not pay attention or have the knowledge. How many times have you made a tricky move on a bad player to be called by bottom pair that wins them the hand because they were too stupid to fold?
This means any bet you make is risking the bet and your stack to a call or over bet. I see this as a risky out of position play with high risk/reward potential.
If you go all-in, any bad player with A-x or a pair is calling so you are a dog in almost any situation.
If it is a weak table allowing limpers, I possibly try to see a flop to break the others if it hits. If limping is punished, I fold and hope for a better hand and position soon.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
So everytime you get shortstacked UTG just about to post a good chunk of your stack you get afraid someone may have JJ? Push, if someone wakes up with a hand, fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just did some rethinking about this situation. I still think you should fold but for less 'simple' reasons. See my post further down. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

You ARE desperate. And when you're short-stacked frankly I don't think it matters all that much whether you're the best or worst player at the table. You don't have the chips to outmanuever anyone anyway. But I'd rather make my move when I'm in position with a lesser hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I would wait since I have been pissing away my chips too often in situations like this. Also, a smart player might see that you are about to take the blinds and play a marginal hand because he thinks you are desperate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

You have to make a play soon, but wait and make it when there aren't eight players behind you waiting to call.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Your going to post a good chunk of your stack with a RANDOM HAND, QJs looks much better than that regardless of your the caller's hand, push.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to make a play soon, but wait and make it when there aren't eight players behind you waiting to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may actually be more inclined to push if you knew you would be called by all 8! I know that's not what you meant, but I thought an attempt at humor was in order.

Side note, I'm out of here for the night so I won't be monopolizing this thread anymore. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes the "not just math" comment is my suggestiong that David is basing the answer on strictly math. As I believe he does in these type posts 90% of the time. Lack of creativity and deeper thought of conditions and players is a weakness in his posts. IMO. It isnt always "JUST MATH". But I do love the math he brings to the plate also!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the proper variables, it is ONLY math. I assume that accurately appraising those variables is the NON-MATH skill which you speak of.
FWIW, I'm probably mucking here on a normal loosish table.

-SossMan

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are the best player at your table but there are no live ones there.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is never common to me when I play
I would have to fold on this 1. Maybe thats why I am never the best at the table!

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

I think I've gotta be all in here.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

If half the field is gone and everyone started with $2000, the average stack is $4000.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Your hand is a favorite over smaller pairs - only Jacks or higher is a real problem.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Fold.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

Yeah i agree with all-in. Your only gonna survive for about two more orbits, and you can probably force out hands up to AQo or 10-10. Then again, its hard to say exactly what you stand to win, with no live players and the possibility . You absolutely cannot bet 450-500- then if you get reraised all on you're really screwed, since you are probably the underdog but you're completely pot committed. Its a terrible spot to be in, but you can't afford another round of blinds. All-in.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

some reasons to push:

you will soon be blinded out of 300 chips, leaving you with just 800. not so bad when blinds are 100/200, but when they jump soon to 200/400, you are completely hamstrung. if you are the best player at the table, you need chips to outplay your opponents with. QJs, while not a very powerful hand, is much better than average and what you can expect in the next 2 hands.

reason to fold:

with 2 broadways, if you get called, you will more likely be dominated than if you had, say T9s.

i think pushing is the better deal here.

cheers!

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
QJ suited

[/ QUOTE ]

What suit? This is important.

Re: Simple Common Tournament Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your going to post a good chunk of your stack with a RANDOM HAND, QJs looks much better than that regardless of your the caller's hand, push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last point I want to make is about this particular aspect of the situation. David chose a situation where it is very close. However, you can afford to take those blind losses for that 1 next round only.

If he had advanced this situation to the chip count of where you would be at (minus the blinds and assuming no played hands) the next time UTG with QJ suited it would be an unfortunate but undebateable push all-in.

Your goal at this point in the tournament is to double up. Most likely the best thing that could happen in the posed scenerio is that everyone would fold if you moved all-in.

Picking up the blinds wasn't really the goal though was it? You almost have to double up. In the scenerio posed by David your chances of doubling up vs busting out are not good.

It does not make sense on a risk vs. reward basis. The best case scenerio of picking up the blinds isn't worth it. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]