Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

Event #5, $550 NLHE. 1500 chips, WSOP blind structure, 50 minute levels.

Level 4 100/200 blinds.

I'm in the BB with 3500.

Passed around to the CO who is an insane action junky who limps into 60% of the pots and raises with any pair. At any point in a hand before significant money goes in... he could have literally any 2 cards. He loves draws, even bad ones. But he hasn't yet put a ton of money into a pot on the end without a big hand. Still, he's thus far limp-called all-in with 10-J preflop and 7-9c on a flop of 2h-2c-2d. He won both hands and has around 5K. If there were a craps table in the room, he would be running back and forth between every hand (whereas I would only do that after a beat.)

He limps, and the button and SB fold. I have 5-3 and check. 500 in the pot.

Flop is A-10-3 rainbow. Check-check.

Turn is a 3. I bet 300, CO calls.

River is a jack, no flush on board. I bet 400 and the CO takes a little more time than he usually does and raises to 1100. I have around 2600 behind.

Fold, call, or re-raise?

I'll post what I did and why tomorrow.

Irieguy

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

Well I definitely would not push all in here, being as you said he could have any two.

Just by reading the post here I am getting the feeling he had KQ.

I dont know why, but when i play guys like this, while they splash around with any two, it doesn't mean they would put in a small bluff raise on the end. If you laid it down, I think it might have been a good fold.

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

Do you think he had a view of you in some way? Perhaps if he viewed you as overaggro yourself, he might pull a bluff or a raise on the river with a hand worse than trips.

I would just call here. As the first poster said it feels like KQ here (as he loves his weak draws as well) but I hate folding here against a weird, random player.

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

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Do you think he had a view of you in some way? Perhaps if he viewed you as overaggro yourself, he might pull a bluff or a raise on the river with a hand worse than trips.

I would just call here. As the first poster said it feels like KQ here (as he loves his weak draws as well) but I hate folding here against a weird, random player.

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It's likely that he viewed me as "solid" but not afraid to move at a pot. Definitely not over-aggro as there were already 2 or 3 of those players at my table, so I had to be a different guy.

I was certain he wasn't bluff-raising, btw.

Irieguy

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

Hey Craig,

I enjoy your posts in STT.

Here are a few questions I think you need to ask yourself-

1) When he called your turn bet did you feel like he was slowplaying you or calling with a draw?

2) Would he raise from the CO with KQ or just limp?

3) Would your opponent bet 2nd or 3rd pair ATF?

4) Is there much of a chance that he is changing up his play and making a move here?

5) What does his pause on the river mean?

I think you are ahead here often enough to make calling correct as you are only behind to the unlikely holdings of AA / TT / JJ / KQ / 3 with a better kicker.

From the info available I call and probably get shown a 3 with a better kicker or AA (as I would have expected a PFR from TT/JJ). I think AA is a strong possibility given the way this hand played out.

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

Irie,

Fun hand, I liked the description about the craps table.

Anyway, I think the obvious answer here is to call. I mean I don't really see how you can be arriving at a fold from your description, even if he is bluffing 0%. In tournaments in spots like these I feel compelled to almost always call (if not raise) because the unknown idiot/donkey opponent could always be overvaluing a worse hand. Maybe this is a leak of mine, but I would be just terrified folding and the villain having some ace he was slow playing. Plus, you have the added bonus here of chopping the pot versus many other 3s. I can't see how you can fold.

Raising is interesting, but if you don't think he's bluffing here, does that also mean he'll felt it with worse? I quite frankly have no idea.

-Jason

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

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Definitely not over-aggro as there were already 2 or 3 of those players at my table, so I had to be a different guy.


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Interesting. Often times when I have aggressive players at my table then it seems like we just go to war until one is gone.

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

This is close between a raise and a call. He very easily could be overvaluing AT, TJ or even a naked ace. On top of that, you chop with a lot of 3s. I lean towards a call however.

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

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Definitely not over-aggro as there were already 2 or 3 of those players at my table, so I had to be a different guy.


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Interesting. Often times when I have aggressive players at my table then it seems like we just go to war until one is gone.

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There was definitely a time in my tournament "career" when that was my approach. But the WSOP this year (when I had to deal with Jim Bechtel and Layne Flack for several hours each) taught me that there are other ways to manage this situation... namely to stay out of the way and use a few well-timed re-steals to build my stack while I wait for the situation to change.

Irieguy

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

Yes.

But, I'm guessing these LAGs werent quite Flack caliber [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]?

If that was the case, I'd just try to run them over or go down trying.

Results
 

This was a tough decision for me because on the one hand it was a chance to double through a bad player. On the other hand, it would be a stupid way to go broke.

He really could not have KQ or a bigger set. A player like this will not open-limp from the CO with a hand as strong as that. So, I wasn't folding.

The question was: is there a weaker hand he could have that would call a reraise by me? I mean, I am in the BB and I would be showing tremendous strength with that move... so he would have to put me on at least a 3.

I decided that if he also had a 3, he would have either bet the flop or raised the turn in most cases. Failing to do either rules out that hand.

He wouldn't raise that amount, in that fashion, on a bluff and he would have certainly bet the flop with an ace. I put him rather firmly on 2 pair... either Jacks up or tens and jacks.

So, would he call a reraise with those hands? Any reasonable player wouldn't. I decided to just call... but at the last second I realized that I had been taking a long time to figure out what to do and I noticed a look on his face that led me to believe that he had become convinced he had the best hand and was hoping for a call. I pushed.

He looked confused for a moment, but called me pretty quickly and mucked when I showed my 3.

At the next break he approached me and said that he made a huge mistake because he forgot that I was in the BB and that the pot was unraised. He said that he wasn't putting me on a 3 for that reason and that he had 10-J.

Irieguy

Re: Some more from the WSOP Circuit Event
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes.

But, I'm guessing these LAGs werent quite Flack caliber [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]?

If that was the case, I'd just try to run them over or go down trying.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, no not quite Flack caliber.

The problem is the short-stack structure of this tournament (only 1500 starting chips). So, any attempts to out-muscle these blokes would put my whole stack at risk, and I was doing OK by just picking my spots.

I managed to only get all-in twice in over 6 hours of play: this hand, and then my last hand. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

If the stacks were deep, and particularly if it were pot limit, I would be more likely to take your approach.

Irieguy

Re: Results
 

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I decided that if he also had a 3, he would have either bet the flop or raised the turn in most cases. Failing to do either rules out that hand.


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I'm confused why you thought he would bet or raise with a 3 in his hand yet you thought a T was a possibility. Why would you think he would bet 3rd pair but not 2nd pair ATF? A LP non-bet ATF against the BB usually means air, monster, or a draw that fears a CR - no?

BTW - Good read, and nh sir.

Re: Results
 

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I decided that if he also had a 3, he would have either bet the flop or raised the turn in most cases. Failing to do either rules out that hand.


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I'm confused why you thought he would bet or raise with a 3 in his hand yet you thought a T was a possibility. Why would you think he would bet 3rd pair but not 2nd pair ATF? A LP non-bet ATF against the BB usually means air, monster, or a draw that fears a CR - no?

BTW - Good read, and nh sir.

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Players like this usually bet bottom when checked to them as sort of a semi-bluff. They don't mind taking the pot down, but if you call they figure they will just make two pair or a set later [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. Middle pair makes them nervous because they really don't want to fold and they won't know where they are if they get called. It's just a pattern I've noticed from the type of crazy player that this guy is.

It was more of the combination of not betting the flop, and not raising the turn that convinced me he didn't have a 3.

As far as it being a good read, well, it actually hurt me. After I talked with him at the break and he confirmed that I put him on his exact hand and made a ballsy play to double through... I got overly confident about my ability to outplay him.

Instead of staying frosty, I felt like I was entitled to all of his chips. A few hours later he limped from late position and I pushed over the top of him with pocket 10's before giving adequate thought to what he was up to. The second after I pushed I realized that this hand felt different from several other hands in which he was involved. I acted on instinct, but my instinct was betraying me because it was based on how I felt about him in general and not how I felt about that particular hand. He "trapped" me with jacks a few tables from the money and I learned an expensive lesson from him. While I can appreciate the process of continued learning in this game, it really pisses me off that I can suck so bad sometimes.

Irieguy

Re: Results
 

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While I can appreciate the process of continued learning in this game, it really pisses me off that I can suck so bad sometimes.


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LOL - is there any experienced player who hasn't felt this way a few times?

Sorry for your ill-timed exit. Please stop by MTT more often.

Re: Results
 

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CO who is an insane action junky who limps into 60% of the pots and raises with any pair

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He really could not have KQ or a bigger set. A player like this will not open-limp from the CO with a hand as strong as that

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A few hours later he limped from late position...with jacks a few tables from the money

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Do you think your postplay conversation with the maniac changed his play towards you??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Nice read BTW

Re: Results
 

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Do you think your postplay conversation with the maniac changed his play towards you??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]


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I don't think it had anything to do with our conversation... by that time it was push/fold for everybody else because of their short stacks and he had plenty of chips. I imagine he was just looking to induce a push from a shorty and leave himself a chance to get out of the way if a big stack got involved, too. I was relatively short at that time, and he took a while to decide that he was willing to race.

Irieguy