Why position is the MOST important factor at PLO?
 

I am fairly new to PLO. My play was simple, play quality starting hand (6-combo, etc), fold on the flop if missed, continue if I have a made hand, massive redraws and the pot odd is right, and finally fold if I have a made hand but no redraws and there were many actions. That's it.

I am winning at PLO actually, perhaps it's because I was against bad players. But what I failed to understand was why position is so important at PLO (I played $200 or below)? I visited many sites like betthepot or playwinningpoker.com. They all stressed that position is the most important factor to consider at PLO but they don't seem to explain well.

Can some experts here explain why it's the case and perhaps with some examples? Links for the previous discussions will be great too.

Thanks.

Re: Why position is the MOST important factor at PLO?
 

because the hand values run much closer together than in holdem. so you are never a big dog or big favorite. so getting extra information becomes relatively more important (vs. hand strength)

-g

Re: Why position is the MOST important factor at PLO?
 

Position is much more important in PL games than any other form of poker because the usefulness of the information will allow you to save or gain a much larger proportional bet, and consequently size your bet well enough to make a meaningful bluff when checked to you.

Pokergoblins recent post (this one has been bugging me) is the perfect example of why positional play is so important.

Assume PG checks the turn there and his opponent bets, PG has been put in a tough spot, because his opponent could be betting the nuts, OR he could be betting because his opponent checked.

For the player drawing, he is in great shape as he can always fold to a bet on the turn if he misses and if he connects his oppponent is leading dead into him and overcommitting himself.

If we reverse the positions and put the draw first, now he is in a tough spot and the set is in better shape. When the draw hits on the turn, does he lead out and give up the information or hope to get in a checkraise?

The set, while not quite as strong here as its not entirely obvious if he's winning or not, can excise some options. Although in a live setting he can use his read of his opponent to some advantage.

Most online players are blithely ignorant of positional play and you will frequently see a "good" PLO player get into a 5 bet raising war on the flop with a powerful drawing hand against top set, flipping coins for their entire stack.

Finally, the reason why this is not as important in NL play as compared to PL play, is that in NL you can simply move your stack in anytime you don't want to worry about position anymore.

Hope this helps.

Re: Why position is the MOST important factor at PLO?
 

PS. position is very important, but it is not the most important factor. I would rank Table Selection higher by a factor of 10.

Re: Why position is the MOST important factor at PLO?
 

The hand I'm referencing is here:

[ QUOTE ]
Live $1/$2 PLO

I am in EP with A -J -J-x . I open raise the max to $7. I get called by two MP players. I start the hand with about $400 and I have them both covered, their stacks are $250ish each.

Flop comes A-J-7

I bet $25, they both call. Pot $100ish.

Turn is an offsuit 9. I bet $80, MP1 pushed all in for his last $120 or so on top. Folds to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps another example?
 

If I am totally wrong here and am giving bad advice, someone slap me and say so. I am by no way an expert. And please forgive the limits. I had a bad run at the $25 tables and I have to do what I have to do.

Preflop I decided to change up my play since I was in position.

My thinking was I can easily get rid of it without much damage or if it hits me hard (two pair? straight, et cetera) I'd get some nice advertisement. I haven't raised much at all and it's a typical micro-limit table.



PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.02 BB (8 handed) converter

BB ($4.43)
UTG ($1.98)
UTG+1 ($2.04)
MP1 ($1.73)
MP2 ($6.98)
Hero ($1.14)
Button ($3.38)
SB ($6.14)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.06</font>, Button calls $0.06, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $0.04, UTG+1 calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04.

Flop: ($0.31) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $0.06</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.06, MP1 calls $0.06, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.61</font>, Button calls $0.61, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($1.71) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.47 (All-In)</font>, Button calls $0.47.

River: ($2.65) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $2.65

mucked [9c 8c 7s 6d]




checkmaster7: he raised that right?
checkmaster7: are you a junk player?
hero: what's a junk player?
checkmaster7: someone who plays 10-7-3-4
hero: well, if that's what it takes, then i guess i'm a junk player
checkmaster7: youll get nutted
checkmaster7: just wait
checkmaster7: i see the tight players
checkmaster7: and they will get you
checkmaster7: im not to great at this game yet
hero: sounds painful
checkmaster7: but im learning


I feel if i was in EP, I would not be able to make this play with such ease for reasons that Aces has said. Since I was in LP I was even able to get dead money in along with a bigger raise. Also, people might not respect me so much even though I put all the money in while I was ahead. I guess for some reason he thinks I might do that when I miss?


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1187256
pokenum -o th 7h 3c 4d - 9c 8c 7s 6d -- 2d 6s 5c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 6s 5c 2d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3c 4d Th 7h 422 51.46 398 48.54 0 0.00 0.515
7s 9c 8c 6d 398 48.54 422 51.46 0 0.00 0.485



http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1187258
pokenum -o th 7h 3c 4d - 9c 8c 7s 6d -- 2d 6s 5c kd
Omaha Hi: 40 enumerated boards containing 6s 5c Kd 2d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3c 4d Th 7h 29 72.50 11 27.50 0 0.00 0.725
7s 9c 8c 6d 11 27.50 29 72.50 0 0.00 0.275

Re: Perhaps another example?
 

I raise with low-card junk on the CO and button all the time, so long as it is atleast somewhat coordinated straight-wise. Examples include 4579 or 3568, but not 238Q or something that would require flopping a boat basically.

You almost can't lose with these raises. Either junk comes on the flop, thus giving you a hand/draw, and you can play it while everyone is sitting there putting you on AA or big coordinated pairs, and thus giving you a much better chance to get paid off rather than had you limped.

If the flop comes down with big cards, or an ace, and someone bets at it, you can fold which adds to your image that you make preflop raises without big cards/AA, disguising the times when you "rightfully" do so.

If you miss the flop all together and its checked to you, you can bluff at it, and many times take the pot right there. If someone check raises you, you can lay it down easily, which also adds to your image since people will know you make position bluffs and lay down to check raises, which you hope they will do when you pick up a big flop and bet on the button again.

Either way you are either a) getting paid off upon flopping a hand more than you would have if you had limped in, or b) adding to your image as a player who either i) raises preflop with junk, or ii) bluffs and lays down to check raises. And these position preflop raises are negligible amounts compared to how much potential payoffs you are gaining.

Although, don't expect anyone at a $25 table to be paying attention anyways. But the sensible players and good players at the $100 and up will be paying attention and you'll have them guessing at you and calling you a "fish" when you "bad beat" them with rags.

-Matt

Re: Perhaps another example?
 

Just reply with "Call the Waaaaaambulance"

Re: Perhaps another example?
 

At 2-4 and above this is not a good strategy at all, imho.

gl

Dave

Re: Perhaps another example?
 

I trust you on that since the highest I've played is .5/1, $100 buyin, 20,000 hands into which I have a 17.3 bb/100

But could you explain, just briefly why playing loose on the button/CO hurts you 2-4 and up?

-Matt

Re: Perhaps another example?
 

I wasnt just being sklansky like brief...late here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

In the bigger games, players are more likely to play wrapped hands more aggressively, so although you have position, they have the better hand AND you are in danger of overplaying the situation. I guess, say Foe limps with 6789 ss and u raise on the button with 9763. There are now lots of flops where he will probably check raise you and you will think you have many more outs than you actually have.

From 5-10 and up, some players will reraise with these kind of hands. So the problem becomes worse.

COngrats on the win rate...I'm wondering at what point we can have a definative view. I know the holdem guys say 200k plus. I'm wondering if that figure is even bigger in PLO? I know some of mine are all over the place.

gl

Dave D

Poker Blog! Omaha Galore!

Re: Perhaps another example?
 

Ah ok that makes sense.

A lot of times when I make that play at the 100's and down at least one person will type "Whoa did you realize he raised with that preflop???"

I can see how if you're not the only person at the table making plays like this than your situation completely changes.

-Matt

Re: Why position is the MOST important factor at PLO?
 

hi gotOUts,

Position is important in PLO omaha for a variety of reasons. I equate calling large raises from out of position with cold calling raises pre-flop in limit hold'em(it should be done from time to time if the situation is right but people do it far too much). Playing out of position can turn many hands that would be a statistical favorite if you were all-in before the flop into playing losers against good agressive opponents with position.

It's very hard to take someone's stack when they act after you. Say you are in early position against a late position player. They will more or less outplay you if they correctly assess your style through semi-bluffing, value betting, or folding to your bets that don't give them the proper odds.

There are some flops with certain players that you just "know" they wouldn't check if they had a big hand. Therefore you can bluff at will if you have position and they show weakness.

When you flop a big hand you usually will make more money in late position than early position. This is because people will bet out with more mediocre hands and you will at least win those bets if you choose to raise. If the situation were reversed and you had their position amd bet before they act they might fold(this can be countered by semi-bluffing).

As Aces mentioned drawing is much better with position so I won't comment on that. Hope these ideas help.

Later,
LA_Price