Why aren\'t you better?
 

I've always wondered what separates the good from the very good in SNG play. I can usually tell what people at my skill level need to work on and what their strengths are, but it's usually something that's easily correctable. But I'm really interested in what separates a very good 215er from a good 109er. What separates you from a winning player at a higher level, or what separates you from a winning player at a lower level?

As a 2nd question mostly for lower limit players, if you're beating the 22s, why aren't you playing the 33s? Assume that bankroll considerations aren't a factor, unless it's too psychologically stressful to lose at the higher limit. Why do you play at the level you're at?

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

i'm [censored] amazing, i don't know what you're talking about.

sometimes, i even impress myself.

c

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

bah, i guess that i'll write a real answer:

the overwhelming reason that more people aren't very good/great at these games is that they either don't work very hard at it or don't know what to work on. this can take on the form of not having an open enough mind to consider that things besides the things you concentrate on or are good at are important to success and improvement. another reason is that they are very poor poker players.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

9-5 + wife

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

Well I would like to think I'm still improving, but I think playing more than 4 tables is slowing me down from making the jump to the 215's. Also I'm quite the p00sy, if it wasn't for deuce2high I would still be in the 55's. I think the only thing stopping me from moving up is confidence.

Any yes, citanul is a [censored] amazing.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
don't know what to work on

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

When I was in engineering undergrad, I would try to plug things into a formula. Or I would try to find the formula in the book. Then, one day, I sort of "got it" and was able to figure things out better on my own when problems weren't so straight forward.

Really low level SNGs are sort of formulaic, and the approach is similar for a lot of players. Look at all the posts that say "tell me what to do here," rather than asking why or allowing or allowing for all variables to be taken into account.

The easy formula at the beginning aspect of SNGS is what makes them easy to learn, and it's how I got into SNGs in the first place. Moving up is sort of like not being able to plug into the quation anymore, but having to take into consideration more variables. The higher you go, the more considerations there are.

And to answer the second part of your question, since I only play the 55s, what holds me back personally is not having played enough to figure out what all those variables are and what all the necessary changes are as you move up. Also, wanting to play as many tables as possible in order to maximize my hourly rate, rather than fine tuning my game slows my progress upward, so I try to compensate by surfing 2+2 a couple of times a day at work.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

Focus
Discipline
Empathy

Not necessarily in that order.

Yugoslav

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

i think about this a lot and honestly i have no idea. i feel like i have gotten so much better in the last 5 months yet my ROI is basically the same. i also find myself agreeing with the top posters in almost all hands posted. but i still suck [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

I understand the concepts, have little to no idea how to apply them.

Also, hands seem clearer in hand histories than when played out.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

I play a lot and lose focus on the point of the game. After a break I find myself realizing that the only point of the game is to win the chips in the middle and subsequently money. This can be accomplished by having the best hand or making others think you have the best hand.

Too often after playing for extended periods of time (either hours or days/weeks) I forget that the game is this simple and start getting into the mindset that I am better than my opponent and deserve to win because I started the hand with AK and he started it with 10J and I call him down just to prove that I was unlucky or something.

I play best when I think about the fact that I want my opponent's money not his respect.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]


this is so true. and this is one of the reasons i get frustrated. most poker up to the 109s lvl is pretty straight forward. these close bubble decisions and post flop situations where you arent sure if your hand is good or not dont come up very often.
yet the fact that a great player can have double my ROI at the same level because of these rare situations (obviously this isnt true, but i feel im playing perfect besides these close situations - the fact that i cant even fathom what else i could be doing wrong also pisses me off) boggles my mind.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a 2nd question mostly for lower limit players, if you're beating the 22s, why aren't you playing the 33s? Assume that bankroll considerations aren't a factor, unless it's too psychologically stressful to lose at the higher limit. Why do you play at the level you're at?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play STT to moderate the variance from MTTs. The last five months my income has been split almost 50/50 between the two. I've spent 10K and have about a 10K BR between Party and Stars. I 4-table the 55s when I feel like I am playing my A-game and 8-table the 22s when I feel that I need to "work", but don't feel up to my best game. Right now I play part-time, but I am taking steps to give fulltime a go.

The biggest thing that keeps me at this level is the steady money. I know there are things I need to work on, but right now I have limited time and increasing my bankroll is the key to freeing up the time I need to improve. I plan to take a hiatus from my job around the first of the year to see what I can do fulltime.

One thing I lack is a network of other players to bounce ideas off, discuss strategies, etc..I have had to plod through the SNG learning curve solo (except for this blessed forum). Hopefully, when I have the time to play more live and get out from in front of my damned computer I can correct this.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

I'm doing my best to get better, I'm currently grinding out the $5s on Stars, single-tabling and posting any questionable hands on here and trying to improve my SNG play, as I'm still playing like a cash game player. Once I'm happy with the decisions I'm making, I'll start to learn to multi-table, starting from 2, moving probably upto 4, maybe 6. Then I'll start playing sets of 3 $5s and 1 $10, gradually increasing the $10s till I'm 4/6 tabling them and so forth, dropping back down if I have to. I want to give this a good shot and see what my $hourly rate can be, and how it compares to my current [censored] day job!

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't curtains do this?

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

The general theme of this post reminds me of a poster that a teacher of mine in high school had:

Many have the will to succeed, but far fewer have the willingness to do what it takes to succeed.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't curtains do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your point?!

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Yugoslav

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

First of all I want to note that Im using qucik reply mode to see what happens.
Im not better because:..
1) I lack self- determination.
2) I lack material to help me learn.( books, tutors, programs, etc
)

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

Also, I don't move up in stakes entirely because I'm not comfortable.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

i dont really know why im not better.

i feel like i "get it," and yet im still struggling along with a 13% ROI at the 22s.

to be fair, i dont play enough. anywhere near enough. but im in law school, and thats just the way it is. so perhaps its just that i dont have that much practice.

i have a little over 1000 SNGs and i'm kind of stumped at why my results arent better. im not a mathematician, and never have been (in fact i havent taken a math since the 10th grade), but i think i understand all the basic concepts espoused on these forums.

one thing is that i probably tilt away an average of one SNG per down session. this doesn't amount to a great deal of -ROI, but it certainly isnt helping matters.

all in all i would just say that i don't practice enough. and that's why im still pretty much mediocre. otoh, i have been doing great at mtts and nl ring lately, which is nice. maybe i'm jsut running well though =/

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

Because my pussy-ness in real life tends to bleed into my poker play. Lack of balls, holla

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Focus


[/ QUOTE ]

For me, this is the only one.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

Dont know what work on.

Also I let the results get to my head way too much. If I finish one great set, the next set I'm over confidented making -EV pushes. If I lose all the games in the set, I'm missing a lot of +EV pushes on the next set, because I'm afraid to pull the trigger. It's not always like this, but pretty damn too often.

Ok, now I know what work on [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

with myself i know that i often make hasty decisions on little information. rather than sit and think about a hand for whatever reason i make a rash decision.

Pat

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

I feel keeping 100 buy ins handy at your given level.

This helps maintain consitent play and sleep after loosing 15 buy ins on a bad day.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

I do this too [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

I'm somewhat slow thinker, and I'm stupidly compensating it with fast "intuition moves". ..and then watching the stack going away.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm really interested in what separates a very good 215er from a good 109er.

[/ QUOTE ]

Learning to play very good pushbot bubble SNG poker is much easier than learning how to effectively combat bubble pushbotters (as much as one can).

Those who watch their opponents' play, can figure out how they think/react in certain situations, and make the proper adjustments will be the best SNG players in the long run, regardless of what the "standard player characteristics" are of their opponents.

Those who get stuck in certain "formula" will face more of a struggle in the long run, as "standard player characteristics" are always in flux (to some degree or other).

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think yugo's pointing out curtain's isn't a "great" 215er... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

I agree with almost everything thats been posted thus far. Hard work, understanding bubble play, mastering bubble play, more hard work and playing all contribute.

There is an aspect of luck involved as well, particularly when you consider the 800 chip games on Party. That aspect of luck may and probably is small, but it can certainly seperate a player with a good win rate from a player with a great winrate, even over 1000s of games.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

so how many people who have here determined reasons they're not better are actually going to go out and carpe diem this [censored] and fix it?

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I will CRUSH all those who think I'm weak-tight. that's so dumb. I hate you. I hate you all. so like, drapes is doing laundry right now. you all know I can't do it because I hate doing laundry and gave up my World Champ laundry belt to Yugo some time back. See, because she's doing my laundry right now I can't vent to her about how all these online idiots think I'm weak-tight. THE OUTRAGE....ridiculous. I can't believe it.


[/ QUOTE ]

- something else curtains might say

Yugoslav

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

From my so far limited experience, this is also the case in the $109s..

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The general theme of this post reminds me of a poster that a teacher of mine in high school had:

Many have the will to succeed, but far fewer have the willingness to do what it takes to succeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Also, going from breakeven at the 11s to a medium winner at the 109s is similar to going from there to a significant 215s winner.

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't curtains do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

hows he runnin lately? holla

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes saying that curtains is a very good player and winner at the 215s. im not saying its not possible to do well, but he would do better if he opened up his early game, and he knows it. holla

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are people that play perfect sng poker. holla

Re: Why aren\'t you better?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are people that play perfect sng poker. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Insert picture of the owl saying "O RLY?".