2 Folds against the same guy
 

Villian is a TAG. I did both these river decisions pretty much instantly. Maybe the first one is bad, or it made the last one bad because of metagame? The second one occured 2 hands after the first.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Hero ($209.85)
SB ($191.80)
BB ($85)
UTG ($222.30)
MP ($189)
CO ($179.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, SB (poster) calls $13, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $10.

Flop: ($44) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($44) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $12</font>, MP calls $12, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $75</font>, SB folds, MP calls $63.

River: ($206) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $55</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $261

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Hero ($183)
BB ($165.80)
UTG ($81)
MP ($219.30)
CO ($303)
Button ($199.05)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $3, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($12) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $7</font>, CO calls $7, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($33) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, BB folds, CO calls $25.

River: ($83) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $35</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $118

-SmileyEH

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

1st hand looks pretty ugly, bet the flop, since u didnt, call the river.

2nd hand u got counterfeited so i doubt ur hand is good, but id put a lot more pressure on the flop/turn.

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

[ QUOTE ]
1st hand looks pretty ugly, bet the flop, since u didnt, call the river.

2nd hand u got counterfeited so i doubt ur hand is good, but id put a lot more pressure on the flop/turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you bet the flop?

-SmileyEH

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

why wouldnt you bet the flop? why wouldnt you bet the flop on hand 2?

your location seems appropriate

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

I don't see what a flop bet accomplishes in hand 1. There aren't really any draws, only better hands will call (AK and a set). If I check I'll probably get action from hand like JJ (almost surely the turn bettor in this case). I'm no expert at nl but I really don't see why betting the flop in the first hand is best.

-SmileyEH

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

so youre saying you wouldnt even bet AK on hand 1, because according to your logic, only another AK or a set will call your flop bet (which is pretty funny, if youre playing in games this tight, you might as well bet any 2 there)

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

I'm slowplaying...the relative strength of my hand v. my opponents is unlikely to change during the course of the hand. I'm never goign to stack someone here so theres no need to build a pot. Can you just tell me why I should bet this flop as in what hands will I extract value from that I wouldn't extract more from by checking or which draws I will protect from? Everybody bets after raising preflop, but you still need a good reason to.

-SmileyEH

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

[ QUOTE ]


Why would you bet the flop?

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you have the best hand.


In hand 2 id probably checkraise and lead 3/4 pot on most turns, betting into the raiser is an option too but i just like to check-raise ppl.

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

Hand 1.

I would definately bet this flop myself because I am against two opponents. I think if you're checking here, it should be for deception and to keep your opponents off balance, but there is no need to do this in a multiway pot.

CERTAINLY call that river. He's making a tiny bet into a large pot. I think you are good here often enough to make the call. It looks like a blocking bet to me (which, he could be doing with a better hand than yours in this case). If he hit his flush he should be betting more than 1/4 of the pot. Why call a large raise on the draw if you aren't going to get max value on the river when you hit?

In the future, if you are going to abandon your hand in the face of a tiny bet like this, then don't bother raising the turn. Just call him on again on the river. It would probably have cost you less money, and you'd get to see what he had.

I have no problem with hand 2, in a vacuum, you are definately behind after the river. EXCEPT that if I was the villian, I would have learned from hand 1 that it doesn't take much to get you to fold on the river. I would bet 1/3 of the pot on the river against you just about chance I could for the rest of the night. Then, just to mix it up, I'd check to you with a decent hand and call when you bet your worse hand because you're sick of me always buying the pot.

I'm not sure what you were implying about meta-game, but for future meta-game purposes, definately call the river in hand 1 (expecting to be beat much of the time (but not ALL of the time)), so that hand 2 doesn't happen to you all night long.

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

I like hand 1..I probably would have raised tiny bit lower, but it works out. betting on the flop isn't bad either, but often when someone checks after raising preflop, on such boards, it either means they flopped top set or have second underpairs, ie) KK, QQ/ JJ in this case and checking the flop/ raising turn lets you extract most out of worse hands I think. you should probably check most rivers too.

in Hand 2, I think you should really bet or check raise the flop. given how you played, I think river call may be fine..Axh could very easily be in his hand range accroding to his action thusfar, and you are getting nice odds

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

[ QUOTE ]
CERTAINLY call that river. He's making a tiny bet into a large pot. I think you are good here often enough to make the call. It looks like a blocking bet to me (which, he could be doing with a better hand than yours in this case). If he hit his flush he should be betting more than 1/4 of the pot. Why call a large raise on the draw if you aren't going to get max value on the river when you hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing with the river is that it is pairing the board. As far as the other guy is concerned I probably have a boat now so he doesn't push the river with his flush like he planned to and just bets small. I didn't really consider the fact that he is making a blocking bet with a weaker king, but how often does KJ ever get this far?

-SmileyEH

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

hand 1 is different but seems alot like how I play some hands... I raise a little less on the turn and pay off the river.

hand 2 im not sure why you played your hand like you did, but river was good fold

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

[ QUOTE ]
but how often does KJ ever get this far?

[/ QUOTE ]

The beauty of your line is... very often

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

[ QUOTE ]
in Hand 2, I think you should really bet or check raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The BB in this hand was really tight and I hadn't seen him lead yet, so I wanted to keep the pot size under control. I was worried that if I checkraised and both guys called there were a ton of turns or rivers that would put me in an ugly spot. Is this weak or prudent?

-SmileyEH

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but how often does KJ ever get this far?

[/ QUOTE ]

The beauty of your line is... very often

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch, ok. I'm glad the rest of the hand was ok because frankly it seemed pretty much standard until the river. It's tough coming from a limit mentality of always paying off on the river, and then having to balance it with it the need to make good folds in nl. I guess I went a little overboard on this hand.

-SmileyEH

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

Hand 2: Don't mess around with bottom 2, it is too easy to counterfiet. Flop bet 2/3 pot to pot. Turn do the same. River fold was the right play, the key is to take it down before the river (or make your opponent invest a lot of $ when he is behind)

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

[ QUOTE ]

The thing with the river is that it is pairing the board. As far as the other guy is concerned I probably have a boat now so he doesn't push the river with his flush like he planned to and just bets small. I didn't really consider the fact that he is making a blocking bet with a weaker king, but how often does KJ ever get this far?

[/ QUOTE ]

(Hand 1 river)

I do realize that it looks like you are beat. But remember that he thinks you played it suspiciously, and he definately doesn't think you filled on the river, because he wouldn't lead out in that scenario. (It takes an odd mentality indeed to think you can block bet a guy who just boated).

You need to be ahead only 17% of the time here to show a profit. Combine that with the metagame aspect of "not letting people know they can push you off hands where you've raised twice with a tiny blocking bet on the river".

It's hard to put him on a specific hand here, but you are definately priced in.

You need to call.

You will then be able to be more comfortable with your fold on hand 2.

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

What about betting the flop in Hand 1 because you will also bet this flop with 65s?

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

Hand 1
I've been trying out this line a bit and I'm fine with it. With 2 opponents a flop bet may be better but it depends on how wide their hand ranges are. Depending on the player MP could have a wide range here and a bet would be better but since you said he was a TAG this probably isn't the case. You've got to think you can get enough from them on later streets to make up for the multiple 2 or 3 outers, though.

I usually can't fold these rivers because of the odds but I think it's a good fold. You've shown a lot of strength on the turn.

Hand 2
I find small 2 pair oop a difficult hand so I'm not sure what I'd do but I don't like your flop line. You just don't want to keep people in the pot. With this board I think that overrides pot control.

James

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

Hand 1 looks like a blocking bet, I call pretty fast. You only have to win 20% and Im willing to bet at least 50%. HAnd 2 bet flop, yeah I guess I fold river.

Re: 2 Folds against the same guy
 

I thought hand 2 was an auto fold on river because you have very little but he has played it a lot like a missed draw. Would he raise flop with a T and check river with weaker one pair? Would he raise flop with a good FD?

It'd be a tough call and you'd need a read but it's important to actually attempt some hand reading rather than just play the strength of your hand.