to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

first of i would like to say this is not a sympathy post and there should be no replies of such. old people only do a few certain things, complain, vote, love their children/grandchildren and eventually pass away. my grandfather is about to pass (no later than friday, i don't know how they know this but that is what i was told) but he has lived a long life and i am grateful for the time i have had with him, so no worries. now that that is out of the way, on with the meat of the post.

my grandfather in june of 1986 was told that if he didn't change his lifestyle he wouldn't live for 5 more years. in 1995 the doctors told him he wouldn't live for two more years and every year since they said he has basically been a medical mystery since only a small percentage of his heart actually works. here is the deal, for the past couple of years he had been really going downhill (of course though, its inevitable) but to keep him ticking he takes about 50 pills a day (this post isn't supposed to spark up a debate about how doctors just try to keep people alive to make money etc.) and this is what has been keeping him running.

the problem is is that its a horrible way to live b/c he should actually be dead. i know this b/c the decision to take him of his medication and stop him from living that way was made on saturday and we are leaving to drive to louisiana tomorrow to be with him when he passes. one week it took. so obviously he would be dead without the drugs.

while on the drugs his body is deteriating and he falls all the time and is contantly breaking bones and now has dymensia and is basically being tortured. his life was hell and it was hard to watch. that is why the decision was made to take him off his medication so he didn't have to live that way anymore.

that is one side of the double-edged sword. the other side is you can always say you wouldn't want to live in torture and that if you weren't able to wipe your ass on your own or if wherever you sat down thats where you ended up for the day then you wouldn't want to live that way, but you don't know how you would feel until this situation arrives. what if there are grandchildren he wants to see married or what if he is just scared or what if he doesn't want to leave his wife of 68 years? we made the decision for him, he has no say in this.

so the question is do you sit and watch a person that you love suffer till their death or do you pull the plug on them? i am asking (sorry if it has been asked before) b/c i honestly don't know how to feel in this situation and either way feels [censored] up.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

damn this is terrible. Sorry to hear this man, I have no idea what to tell you in this situation. It is a terrible way to live, but just spend as much time with him and make it as easy as possible for him and the rest of his family.

my grandfather was incredibly lucky: he got the 6 months to live report from the doc, immediately handed over his restaraunt biz to a couple of his kids, and started travelling all over the country with his wife.

a few months later he died of a car accident.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

Honestly I'm for pulling the plug. I think it's often merely selfishness disguised as caring for others(what if he LIKES being a vegetable?) that makes people prolong the misery of their family when their quality of life is minimal or even inarguably extremely negative. Dying is often sought by the old and infirm because life is not a good in itself, but a qualified good. If you've had your time on earth and extra days aren't adding anything to the equation, just hanging around in misery waiting for the end adds absolutely zero to your life's experience and may even degrade it to an extreme. Some people go through a lot of suffering and loneliness before they are finally allowed to die.

I'd wish as clean and timely a death on anyone as I'd wish on myself. I wouldn't want to live on being a burden and expense to my family while I was getting nothing out of life but a daily round of misery. All that "rage before the dying of the light" strikes me as crap.

I'm sure there are people who feel otherwise, but I feel the person who best knows when it's time to go is the ill person. And if he has dementia, his relatives and friends would or should know his wishes were he healthy enough to state them. This is a good reason for making a living will, so you can be eased out of your suffering instead of having ir multiply as the days pile up.

I'd hate to live life that way, or subject my family to having to see my misery and degradation and dragging them through it with me.

I'm not all that much in favor of the idea of pulling the plug the way we do now either. A person should be able to take a few pills and painlessly slip away in an hour or two.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

My wife's family pulled the plug on my mother-in-law in July after only a week of conditions like that. I can't imagine allowing the person to live much longer than that (assuming that the person didn't leave explicit instructions to be kept alive at all costs), nevermind 5 years or whatever.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd hate to live life that way, or subject my family to having to see my misery and degradation and dragging them through it with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blarg - I think this is what makes Tdarko's post interesting - you believe you wouldn't want to live with this way, but when confronted with death, is it really so easy to say this?

Tdarko - Wow, as others have noted I'm sorry to hear about this situation. It's a really, really tough call. Of course ideally it should be up to the person whose life is at stake. Barring that possibilty - from a utilitarian Peter Singer type perspective, I think pulling the plug makes the most sense (drain on much needed healthcare resources etc).

From a personal standpoint - only if I were convinced that my loved one could no longer, at all, enjoy or get something out of life, would I feel comfortable pulling the plug. Yes, I realize this is hypocritical...

Conflicted,
-Al

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

my thoughts are along the lines of yours, in my post i figured i would try to state both sides fairly.

i hate seeing him suffer and i always thought the way he lived was cruel in some way. what made me think in another direction was my mother, she basically just said its easy to say you would rather die when you aren't the one facing death and leaving a women you have sat next to for over 6 decades. she made a point that different people react differently to death and you can never just say, "if i am ever like that just pull the plug on me." i thought it was interesting though i don't necessarily agree.

its one of those tough situations b/c you don't want someone to die but you don't want someone to suffer. i choose death (i guess) since life for the particular person has been fullfilling.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

When my Grandpa died, he dragged on for a day or two after his stroke because he had a pacemaker that kept the heart beating. All my dad wanted to do was open a microwave near that son of a bitching pacemaker and let him die with dignity. I don't think the doctor's would do it.

The only people who want to cling onto life till the bitter end are those who lived so terribly they're afraid there may be a God waiting to judge them.

Anyone who's even halfway decent generally accepts that there's a point in their life where they may not want to be prolonged or sustained artifically. They want to, for lack of a better word, find rest and see if there's any great reward to come like being reunited with loved ones.

Don't feel bad, dude. Your Grandpa sounded like a good guy. I'm sure if he wasn't in this condition, he'd tell you not to feel down about pulling the plug. I suspect he's ready for some peace.

pax
RB

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only people who want to cling onto life till the bitter end are those who lived so terribly they're afraid there may be a God waiting to judge them.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who's even halfway decent generally accepts that there's a point in their life where they may not want to be prolonged or sustained artifically. They want to, for lack of a better word, find rest and see if there's any great reward to come like being reunited with loved ones.


[/ QUOTE ]
good points and probably true.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

this is completely wrong. most people are terrified of dying and being 'halfway decent' (or even 'really decent') doesn't help. it's natural.

i'm sure most people would like to say "i just want it to end if that happens", but i've seen plenty of people cling to nothing when the [censored] really hit the fan.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

Astroglide - I agree. I think it's easy to postulate what one would do in these circumstances, but when actually confronted with death... very different story I'd imagine.

Afraid To Die,
-Al

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

strange thing, dying.

I had a teacher who told me about his father, and how his father was the most stubborn, toughest guy he ever knew in his entire life up till the day he was in a hospital bed and about to die.

And all he cared and cried about his final days was that he HAD to have his wife and family there cause he was so scared of dying alone.

-------------------------------------

After my nice pleasant bout with suicidal depression, I've never really been scared of dying either, per se, but I've been scared as hell of dying alone - that's the only terrible thing I can imagine about dying anymore. In fact, I just had a terrible scare after this post - (that had been building for a couple days) that my Dad might have just died alone in the woods and it freaked me out enough to call my bro. back.

Sounds like that's not happening here either. So again, I would tell him not to be too upset about it - - I think what Tdarko's family is doing is acceptable.

I do NOT want this to drift into a political or theological argument statement, (as Tdarko said earlier - wrong forum for both) - but I'll put it this way -

I don't believe there's a God in Heaven who's gonna judge his family for murder or call them a sinner for what's happening.

RB

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

[ QUOTE ]
Afraid To Die

[/ QUOTE ]
me too Aloysius, me too. i am certainly afraid of the unknown, i will not go further b/c its the wrong forum for that.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

Due to the nature of my family situation, I have had to deal with the deterioration of several family members in the past few years(five different people, I think). After watching the person that we loved fade into oblivion, and be replaced by someone who doesn't recognize us or know what day it is, and seeing the toll it took on my parents to have to deal with that, I can say with no hesitation that faster is better. It was sad when they died, sure...and hard to see them go, but sadness was competing with relief at that point...and who wants people to be relieved that they are dead?

It boils down to quality of life. Everyone slows down as they age, but until recently, there was only so much modern medicine could do to prolong life. Now, we are able to sustain people in bodies and minds that are long-since used up.

Do I condone euthanasia? No. But do I think that we should use machines to force people in their eighties and nineties to breathe and eat food, when they would have simply passed on years before if not for them? Absolutely not. I couldn't stand being laid up for two months with my ankle recovering from surgery...I can't imagine enduring years of invalidity...seems like one concept of hell to me.

It's just funny to me that we don't let our pets suffer the same way we let our human loved ones suffer...seems a bit out of whack.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

first off, excuse my bad english. it's not my native tongue and i used some words in this post i never even heard before...

my granddad had a light stroke 12 years ago. from then on his mind started to disintegrate. 8 years ago there were days where he wouldn't recognize me or other family members and he started to lose control of his body. he became more and more apathetic. 5 years ago you could hardly talk to him about the weather, -except for some rare good days. he was a strong nursing case at this time, laying in bed almost all day. the last 3 years i have only heard grunting noises from him. sometimes he realised when someone entered the room, but most of the time not. we tried to take care of him at home as long as we could, but 2 years ago he came into nursing home. he died last summer with 91 years.

while his mind was gone, his organs were healthy all the time. no plugs to pull. it was hard to see what a strong man like my grandad could become...

i am young and i know it is easy to say something like that now, but i don't want my life to end this way. and in case my life will be depending on some machines, with no hope to become worth living again, i really hope whoever has to decide will have the courage to pull the plug.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

I agree with astro et al. it is true that life is crappy at that end, but it's life. faced with the choice between miserable life and the void, I'd go with miserable life.

but that's just me. I think it depends on the person's wishes. in this specific case it appears that dude wants to live.

blarg--I never considered the selfishness argument before. that's an interesting point. I always felt bad for not caring more when someone dies. I never considered that anyone else had anything but sympathy for the dying.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it depends on the person's wishes. in this specific case it appears that dude wants to live.


[/ QUOTE ]
it does depend on a person's wishes and if he/she is not able to coherently make a decision then of course it's on someone else...

my ex-gf is a nurse and she said that more times than not the person wants to keep the plug in, and almost always if its up to a relative or loved one they choose life. this is why i think our family is not in the norm, we are somewhat of a hard-nosed family, a military family and my father is pretty much the head of the family (though he has 3 sisters and 4 brothers) and makes all of the decisions. he proposed the idea and everyone agreed. yet this isn't the norm. why?

again this is why i think my mother had a valid point, everyone one can say what they want when not facing death but when the time comes can you kill yourself? can you kill your father? your mother?

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

i'm not actually saying i'd go with the miserable life. i don't think i would, but i can't really know until it happens.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

[ QUOTE ]
so the question is do you sit and watch a person that you love suffer till their death or do you pull the plug on them? i am asking (sorry if it has been asked before) b/c i honestly don't know how to feel in this situation and either way feels [censored] up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would rather a loved one die than suffer the rest of their life in unimaginable pain. I had to euthanize my dog a few months ago because he was suffering from terminal bone cancer. He had a hard time moving around and was slowly becoming unable to do all the things that make life worth living. I decided it was selfish for me to force him to keep on living when he could die with peace and dignity.

A month later, my grandmother broke her hip and after various complications(she was already suffering from multiple serious illnesses) she was placed in hospice. Instead of allowing her to die with dignity, she was maintained in a semi-vegitative state for weeks after she had already made her peace with her loved ones and clearly passed the point of no return. This type of unnatural life prolonging does nothing but cause suffering for all involved.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

I am for pulling the plug, and in certain circumstances actually doing the killing. Its very stupid do have someone lying on there death bed, with no hope of a cure and making them suffer an extra week just because "all life is precious". People should be allowed to die with dignity and not be forced to suffer pointlessly. as for your grandpa, Once the decision is made that its best for him not to go on, I would want it to be as painless as possible (heavy drugs, up to the point of being lethal if necessary).

One thing though, is that the state your grampa is in sounds like I would still prefer it to death. Ya taking pills sucks, and so does chronic pain, but I think you can still get some good out of life.

P.S. sorry about your grandpa.

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

in my case and in most of my family's case we also have a fairly strong religious faith that gives us good comfort for the afterlife -

Maybe we're wrong, and maybe it's a crutch, but it helps me occasionally.

RB

Re: to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with astro et al. it is true that life is crappy at that end, but it's life. faced with the choice between miserable life and the void, I'd go with miserable life.

but that's just me. I think it depends on the person's wishes. in this specific case it appears that dude wants to live.

blarg--I never considered the selfishness argument before. that's an interesting point. I always felt bad for not caring more when someone dies. I never considered that anyone else had anything but sympathy for the dying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a very real point and can be very central to what's really going on.

Not that it's a pleasant aspect of it to have to think about at all. But it's there inescapably.

These issues are a lot more subtle than many people give them credit for. That's one reason why a living will is really the way to go. When people decide who lives and who dies, it's not true at all that they're doing it simply in reference to the person dying; they're also interjecting themselves into the equation and often the predominate if not entirely controlling influence. Which, especially since they're not the ones suffering the pain, the diminished capacities, or the humiliating indignities themselves, can be incredibly unfair to who becomes the almost glossed over subject of the matter -- the guy actually doing the dying and the suffering or fully or partly vegetative state that leads up to it.

I really think the oldsters should be saved from the agendas, beliefs, and guilt trips of their youngers and not subject to people doing medically very unnatural things for them "for their own good" and imprisoning them in someone else's choices.