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-   -   .5/1 AK mega draw (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=401125)

Isura 12-19-2005 01:44 AM

.5/1 AK mega draw
 
Villain sat about 1 orbit ago. No significant reads. Fire again on the turn? Raise preflop? I've been at the table 4 orbits, button seems decent and played two pair well against fish earlier.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">UTG ($37)</font>
Button ($161.45)
SB ($152.25)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($100.90)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, Button calls $1, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($4) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, UTG calls $4, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($12) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $7</font>, Hero calls $7.

River: ($26) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks

12-19-2005 01:48 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
I would have raised preflop in this case and then pot it on the flop. It would totally change the whole dynamic of this hand.

Mercman572 12-19-2005 01:50 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop? I've been at the table 4 orbits, button seems decent and played two pair well against fish earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. Don't let him see a flop with position on you for cheap. I don't like firing at this first to act multiway in a limped pot, if I was PFR'er though it's standard (for one since there aren't 4 to a flop). Semi-bluffs need some sort of fold equity and I think you typically don't have it on this flop.

Malachii 12-19-2005 01:53 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
Typically raise preflop, although w/ no reads checking is alright. This is fine postflop.

tighterr 12-19-2005 01:55 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
No pot odds to call the turn bet. I would lead out for another 4$ on the turn and fold to a significant raise. Biggest mistake was no preflop raise. You need the money in the pot to make this draw profitable.

tagtastic 12-19-2005 01:55 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
This is definitely a preflop raise 100% of the time and probably a post-flop 3-barrel hand for me. Hit the flop with your usual continuation bet, 1/2-2/3 pot on the turn and something like 1/3-1/2 pot bluff on the river to get other draws to fold. If you get called down, so be it - imo all these bets are +EV in the long run. I don't mind making a big pot here since your A and K are likely live outs as well.

I wouldn't be opposed to playing more passively if you were in position, but out of position a flop bet / turn check invites steals w/ little or no hands on the turn/river like no other play. As is I'm sure you're beat given this unraised pot, a bigish river bluff would be your only possible move, and that's incredibly opponent dependent.

12-19-2005 02:28 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
I think not raising AKs from the BB a small percentage of time is alright to mix it up against good opponents. That being said, I don't think it's a good idea to let it go to the flop four handed. It's better to raise preflop and then pot the flop when it comes this way. If you get played back at, then you pray for that club to fall.

DJ Sensei 12-19-2005 02:39 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
Against a single button or SB limp, checking this is fine occasionally. Against several limpers, you need to raise. Get money in while you're ahead, cut out some of the competition, get yourself some fold equity for later in the hand if you need it.

Given the check, the rest of the hand is fine.

ClaytonN 12-19-2005 02:41 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
Definite raise preflop, and that changes the entire aspect of the hand. With the hand unraised prelop there is no need to go nutso with the big draw.

Postflop I think your play is fine, but I am curious to know how you would play an offsuit ace or king on the turn.

soah 12-19-2005 03:36 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
Bet again on the turn. Very very basic example of where it's better to bet yourself if you were planning to call a bet anyway. You have collected a complete brick on the turn which means you will rarely get raised.

Exitonly 12-19-2005 03:44 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
and something like 1/3-1/2 pot bluff on the river to get other draws to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


woah. If you're betting the river, it's because you think you can get made hands to fold, not draws. Be careful bluffing AK on the river. if you think they're on draws, check-call. induce a bluff from them. Don't just make them fold hands that are worse than your ace high.

You can get carreid away with betting, because you'll see that your river bets w/ ace high are winning the pot often, well thats because villain probably can't beat ace high, so you made a bad bet.

This is more important in limit i think thuogh, but my point stands.

tagtastic 12-19-2005 03:51 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
This is more important in limit i think thuogh, but my point stands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's very important in limit and almost completely inapplicable with A high in NL games outside of heads up. If I'm semi-bluffing a big draw on the flop &amp; turn, a river "value bet" bluff is an excellent way to get draws who still have you beat to fold (for example pair + draw or turn/river small pair w/ draw from the flop), or at the very least eliminate a difficult river call with Ace high. If I have made hand here I'll check this river often to induce a bluff that I will most definitely call. Ace high is not exactly showdown material the vast majority of the time in any NL game outside of heads up imo. Big difference from limit.

soah 12-19-2005 03:55 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
Busted draws will usually check behind at these stakes against players who fired twice.

Isura 12-19-2005 03:57 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
Bet again on the turn. Very very basic example of where it's better to bet yourself if you were planning to call a bet anyway. You have collected a complete brick on the turn which means you will rarely get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I wasn't sure how much I need to bet to make this guy fold a pair though, so I thought he would end up betting less than my 2nd barrel. Nevertheless, betting is still better as long as we some fold equity, correct?

soah 12-19-2005 04:00 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
I'm usually not betting there trying to make hands fold; I'd bet there to give myself a nice price to draw at a lot of outs and disguise my hand in the process. The fact that he will fold sometimes is just a bonus.

tagtastic 12-19-2005 04:05 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
Busted draws will usually check behind at these stakes against players who fired twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but busted draws who happen to pair will likely fold to a bet (and those who don't pair will fold as well). This is read dependent though, river betting into a call station here is a bad idea, as he'll likely call with a small pair, but a decent player will often fold a hand that would beat an unimproved AK.

soah 12-19-2005 06:17 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
The non-clubs on the board are 5, 3, and 2. The A, K, and Q of clubs are all accounted for. Unless he is playing any two suited, he is going to have a pair with a flush draw just about never. Stealing a $26 pot successfully 5% of the time and giving away another $15 95% of the time is ridiculously -EV.

c_strong 12-19-2005 10:22 AM

Re: .5/1 AK mega draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any particular reason why you didn't? Just curious.


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