Fear of success
 

There are times in my life where if things are going really well, I do something to sabotage it. Nothing really drastic or truly self-destructive - but something just enough to add drama or ensure that I will not have an easy time.

This carries over into poker sometimes. If I am having a good session, or good week, I will play sloppy for a while and will tend to bluff too frequently. If I have a big chip lead in a tourney I will overplay my big stack.

I think this tendency has something to do with a fear of success – at least success how it is commonly seen. I am not sure if I have a serious problem with this, because I think I fear failure more. But I think this is holding me back, not just in poker.

Where do these feelings come from and how can I stop them from creeping into my actions?

Re: Fear of success
 

i never really understood it when people say they have a fear of success, nor do i really believe in it for the most part. it doesnt make sense to me. the only times when fear of success makes logical sense despite it being illogical of course is if the person is afraid that success might have others pressure him into working harder or maintaining more success. a better description of this fear in my opinion is fear of pressure.

i doubt thats the case here.

youre probably afraid of failure, but that doesnt seem appropriate here since you often tilt away a big stack in a tournament. maybe you are afraid of failure so you intentionally blow your tournament life just so that way you can say "eh i dont care anyway."

bottom line is that these posts on the psychology forum bother me. you get all these replies from people trying to be helpful giving candy advice. in truth, the best advice someone could give you about your problem here is to just stop playing like a retard. its a choice you make. you either tilt or you dont.

Re: Fear of success
 

Actually, fear of success is a very real situation - but it is VERY closely related to the fear of failure.

For many people, success means pressure - if they do well or win at poker or get a great job, then immediately, it can create anxiety - what if I lose this job? What if I lose all my winnings? etc.

So what these people will do is they will protect themselves from those potential failures by sabotaging their chances to be successful. That way, they can stay in the same situation they are in - one that is likely very comfortable for them, even if they are miserable - because at least this is misery that they understand and know they can deal with.

Thus, fear of success is closely linked to fear of failure.

Re: Fear of success
 

I have that problem if it has gone really good for a while then i get too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]:):)

And i do bad calls maybe call all ins when i know i have the worst hand. And bluffing more.

But damn if it has gone bad then it is the opositte [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Fear of success
 

I have a theory about this condition. And, yes it is very common. One, is that success creates several problems for an individual. They seem afraid of losing their circle of friends. Even though they all tend to be unsuccesful people.
It is just like the situation where a fat person goes on a diet, exercises, loses weight, and all of his/ her fat friends stop answering the phone when s/he calls.

I believe that succesful people are frightening to most people. They see their boss at work, and how s/he behaves, and doesn't want that for themselves.

Unsuccessful people are addicted to the struggle of going up, it is where all the fun is. Once there, they fear having nothing to wake up for, they always ask "what's next," even though they aren't there yet.

Also, failure is such a dynamic feeling. Every person wants compassion, it feels a lot closer to love than adulation.

If you grew up in a smaller town, where you were taught to be "normal," then there is an ingrained prejudice against success. You grew up seeing all the anger unsuccessful people had, and you don't want that anger directed at you.

Some people thwart success because they don't feel more deserving than the homeless, laborers, and welfare recipients.

Going back to the boss thing. Many bosses seem inhuman, treating employees like toilets. They feel that rich people have no value of human life. Unsuccessful people are too idealistic, and want all the world to lift with them.

So that's my own analyst. I had, and still do fight with these demons, but the more you simply move on, the easier it all gets. Eventually the truth of life breaks down into simpler pieces, and makes winning at poker, and life, a lot easier.

Re: Fear of success
 

Sounds like you just need more discipline in poker. Fear of success is BS. I am a successful person and I have lost no friends. Half my friends work for me. I think as long as you remain modest and don't go rambling how much money you make, your friends won't be jealous. Even when they ramble about a good night waiting tables or something saying "I made $150 in 2 hours!", I just say good job and praise them. I don't reply "oh ya, I made 12k playing some PL Omaha in 8 hours!"

Re: Fear of success
 

Fear of success in all the scenarios described so far in this post just sounds like an easy excuse for being a failure and not really that good.

Re: Fear of success
 

There is truly no good excuse for fearing success. This is someting I have thought about alot, because a good portion of my friends are... let's say that at least spiritually, I am considered the richest. It is strange to discover that this really has no standing with them, probably because they already know other successful people who have far more money than I do.

I have been in countless discussions about this topic. If you don't believe me, here is a list of professions (if you can call them that) that you will find myriad people: factory worker, backround extra, paid audience worker, has- been actor, short- order line cook, or go down to your local homeless shelter, ask any drug- free person who has been on the street for years, and you will hear so many excuses of why they don't go to the next level, that you are apt to blowing your brains out.

The first problem is that all of these people have been dejected to their station in life, and none of them are going to advance. One common thought is "what's next," and "my parents."

I personally believe that there is no good excuse for poverty. Most people are never going to change their fundamentals, and ghetto's will always exist. The mind is a hard thing to change. Think of all the people who are content to do the same thing day in and day out, or the foury- five year old OGs.

Poker success and success in general poses a problem because it goes against the paradigms of our society and, in most cases, our upbringing. We are all taught to "play it safe," and "follow the rules." These are like saying "fit or fold." or "let the dealer bust." Successful people break the rules. They don't get married right away, they drop out of college (Bill Gates) they never find a "real" job, or refuse to stay at one.

We all know that real- estate agents, lawyers, finance brokers, and car sales men can all make a large chunk of money. How many of these professions are considered "scuzzy". We grow up listening to "you can never do that" or "that's a one in a million long shot" or "stop dreaming." If these are the words coming from the ones we love, we tend to believe them, and many of us would hate to dissappoint the ones we love.

I am not saying that any of the things I am writing are set in stone, or that these are good excuses, because there really is no good excuse for anything in life. The poster asked why this mindset exists, and this is where all of those demons must come from.

If this all sounds to far- fetched, then tell me why people seldomly move up in the econimic ladders. i know that I am going to here "oh yeah, I know lots of people," I doubt that you know more than five, compare that to the millions that are still poor. And I know some of you will say such and such came from such and such poor country, but never asked how poor or rich their family was, international plane tickets aren't free.

Re: Fear of success
 

What you truly seek my brother, is the annhilation of the self.

Re: Fear of success
 

Wow. You are the first person I've heard acknowlege this but I get these feelings sometimes too. I think it's a subconscious thing where I feel guilty for "stealing" peoples money. It's weird and it s**ks. I try to remind myself "they're trying to steal my money, too". Then I'm usually over it.

But yes, living a certain lifestyle for years and years, and then suddenly having a much more profitable, relaxed lifestyle is a lot to get used to.

Re: Fear of success
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, fear of success is a very real situation - but it is VERY closely related to the fear of failure.

For many people, success means pressure - if they do well or win at poker or get a great job, then immediately, it can create anxiety - what if I lose this job? What if I lose all my winnings? etc.

So what these people will do is they will protect themselves from those potential failures by sabotaging their chances to be successful. That way, they can stay in the same situation they are in - one that is likely very comfortable for them, even if they are miserable - because at least this is misery that they understand and know they can deal with.

Thus, fear of success is closely linked to fear of failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nicely put. I was about to post about a similar subject. I have been running hot for the past month. Basically winning at a rate that I haven't been able to sustain for very long.

But the problem/issue is this, I have started to play short sessions and become more results oriented. Meaning if I win quickly, I'll stop. If my bb/100 is above (more likely greatly above as to make of for negative sessions) a set line, I'll quit. The game may be juicy and players have deep pockets, but I'll "hit and run". I get a win. Increase my BB/100. Feel good, but....I don't feel that I'm improving or doing all I could. I should play more hours, but I fear losing that win. Lowering my BB/100, etc.

Fear of success is, in my mind, fear of living up to my potential and succeeding at the level I believe that I could. By getting the hit and runs, I don't put myself in too much jeopardy. On the flip side, I'll play longer hours to get back to even. Luckily, I have been able to recently.

Don't know exactly where this is going. I'm just trying to learn how to "deal with success" without screwing it up and to keep improving. I've been through the "I'm better than them", "how could you call that bet, do you know who I am", "my name is Phil Hellmuth" stages, etc that I've avoided that particular fear of success. It's the fear that I'm going to screw up my hot streak that I don't take advantage of the opportunities in front of me....

Re: Fear of success
 

A couple random bit of verbal diarrhea:

Fear of success is really a fear of maintenance of success. I suffer from it and solve it by not moving up in levels and constantly withdrawing money from my poker account. If I'm playing 200 NL, I keep around $1,000 in my account and squirrel away all the rest in the bank. That way I'm always a few buy ins from going broke which keeps me on my toes and limits any major tilt sessions (or allows for tilt and infuses the necessary drama for you). I usually go broke twice a month and re-seed a small amount and start over. My game is the type that has many medium wins and one or two huge losses, so having a limited bankroll available helps curb the huge losses. Your game may be different, especially if you play limit and are more susceptable to card based variances. So it might not be as relevant. If the sabotage comes when you're doing well, then by keeping just a couple buy ins available, you're never really doing that well..always fighting for your life.

2) Success is relative to failure. I always say that the biggest barrier to being rich is knowing what it is to be rich. You see it every time a low income person wins 100 million dollars in the lottery and goes out and buys a new mustang, thinking it's the best car in the world. Many of the 'upbringing' points that were made in the responses fit here.

3) Maybe drama is your success. Maybe you feel best when you're coming and going..high to low ... low to high. Half the battle is getting there, etc etc.

4) Sucess makes people face themselves. Once you've achieved all your goals..then what? You can start thinking about dying. The struggle towards some goal is vital escapism for many many people. Once you don't have a struggle to be caught up in, there's a void that needs filled with something.

Wipe wipe..all done,
JobyWan

Re: Fear of success
 

Hey, this really caught my attention.

Might you please elaborate in detail on this concept? The original poster likely posted to hear exactly what you have to say.

Re: Fear of success
 

in regards to success and failure

best post ever

(at least it is my favourite)

also i found this article while googling for annihilation of self.

Interesting take on Fight Club

Re: Fear of success
 

this is exactly what i mean. you have a fear of failure. you dont have a fear of success. maybe it is me that really doesnt understand the definitions of these terms, but i believe that many people confuse the two which is what you have done here in my opinion.

Re: Fear of success
 

Thank you for posting these links.

There is a framework you can discover, within which repetitive drama in your life plays out.


It's usually about judging your feelings.

These judgement blocks a true experience of the feelings, which is the actual issue at the root of the dramatic episodes. Getting the experience of the feelings gets you insight. Blocking (judging) gets you drama.


I read about a guy who always "capped" his earnings from a very difficult poker-like activity he was actually very good at.

It turns out he equated success with money with someone from his earlier life, who he did not want to be like. In his view, "over X per year" = "just like Mr. Evil from my past."

So, when he reached a certain self-imposed ceiling income he equated as being "just under" success-with-money, he would, quite inconsciously, self-sabotage any success with money generation above that level. He blocked the experience of feeling "evil" by limiting his income.

This made him an OK person, since any amount earned over the self-imposed ceiling made him (in his view) exactly like the "evil" person he absolutely "didnt want to be like".

Once he figured that out, felt the feeling of being like the "evil" person, and got the insight from that, he made unlimited amounts. He got clear. Making incredible amounts in the activity was, after all, his real gift (innate talent) in the first place.

This is just one example.

Shall I keep going?

Re: Fear of success
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly what i mean. you have a fear of failure. you dont have a fear of success. maybe it is me that really doesnt understand the definitions of these terms, but i believe that many people confuse the two which is what you have done here in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, somewhat.

Although in both cases, what is ultimately feared is failure, the fear manifests itself in different ways.

A person with a fear of failure may push themselves very hard to succeed as a way of dealing with that fear - they may try to control their situation, use manipulation to secure their position, etc...

A person with a fear of success will avoid situations that put them in a position to fail - they will avoid possible success because of the fear of failure.

Two sides of the same coin.

Re: Fear of success
 

Yes, it all comes down to beliefs. In your example:

"over X per year" = "just like Mr. Evil from my past."

is a belief. Beliefs are complex equivalences (A equals B, A means B) or cause and effects (A causes B, "If A then B). Beliefs (aka, complex equivalences and cause and effects) are self fulfilling prophecies. They are like thermostats. Once you set your thermostat at 78 degrees, this temperature becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as far as the temperature in your room goes.

Same with money. Here's great article about money and beliefs that explains self sabotage - that is, tendencies for people to "self destruct" once they get their bankrolls up to a certain level.

Re: Fear of success
 

That's a great link.

For those interested in beliefs, specifically, why it is important to notice the ones you work from and to be willing to change them, see this post by Sklansky over in the "Sklanksy Forum" entitled You CAN Change Your Axoims

This post of his is so great and hits such a key topic, it's kind of a joke that people are not growing that thread!!

Note: He calls them 'axioms' as he will.

Re: Fear of success
 

Thanks for the link. So far, I have read Sklansky's original post as well as your response. It is an excellent thread that Sklansky had to bump!

Here are some links to some specifics of axiom and belief change. Simply click on the entries that are preceded by the word "beliefs".

Re: Fear of success
 

If you let it, peer pressure can be a bitch.

I think a big part of many people's problems stem from the way they are treated by others. I had been doing well at a NL game and friends started making a lot of comments that, while sounded like praise, had jealousy mixed into them. It made it harder to play good because I stood out from them and I think it has led me into the funk that I have been in. Being able to realize that my fear of being ridiculed for doing well is at the forefront of my "good playing blockage", frees me from those ties and allows me to go back and play good.

Strange that success can be more burdensome than failure, until one stops and sees that it is only because so many people are willing to accept failure, that it is the status quo.