Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

No reads - I'm new to the table and have never played with any of these guys before. That's what I get for not playing poker for two weeks. For some reason I felt like a deer trapped in the headlights on this hand. It was something about his bet sizes or something. What do you guys think?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($134)
TWP ($394)
SB ($235.10)
BB ($369)
UTG ($340.34)
MP ($124.12)

Preflop: TWP is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $4, <font color="#CC3333">TWP raises to $15</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $11, CO folds.

Flop: ($36) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $14</font>, TWP calls $14.

Turn: ($64) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $50</font>, TWP calls $50.

River: ($164) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $65</font>, TWP calls $65.

Final Pot: $294

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

well hello calling station

I probably raise that flop and then get out if the turn doesn't help me

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

I think I throw in a raise on the flop to try and take this down and if he bets into me again on the turn (w/o improving) I probably fold.

Definitely a weird hand, one that I also have trouble with and what makes playing suited one gappers and suited connecters difficult to play when you raise and hit TP instead of a sweet draw.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

Does anyone have any experience with these bet sizes in this situation? What do you think they mean? He bets tiny on the flop, reasonable on the turn, and then small again on the river? Weird. And I viewed a flop raise as a bluff essentially, so I wasn't too happy about it, but I didn't want to fold, but I don't really like my call...I suck at poker.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

unfortunately, I have had experiences where that exact pattern is a sign of strength, and I have had experiences where that exact pattern is a sign of weakness...its really hard to tell just from the text

I think calling down the whole way is way too much spewing...I'd prefer to raise, figure out where I'm at, and cut my losses right there, or take it down. If I end up hitting my flush, then I make a nice pot.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

These bet sizes often mean that, on the flop you didn't raise so you must have high cards that haven't paired yet peeling one off. On the low turn, he bets bigger to make you fold said big cards but you don't do it. On the river, he wants to showdown cheapish because he has no freaking idea what you have but has something with showdown value himself. You are rarely ahead on the end but every once in a while they'll show you a small pocket pair.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I suck at poker.

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You ain't the only one!
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Does anyone have any experience with these bet sizes in this situation? What do you think they mean? He bets tiny on the flop, reasonable on the turn, and then small again on the river? Weird. And I viewed a flop raise as a bluff essentially, so I wasn't too happy about it, but I didn't want to fold, but I don't really like my call...

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I agree the bet sizes are weird. I would think that the flop bet is a bluff or a draw given the size, which makes me inclined to raise.

The turn and river are kind of weird. The turn almost looks like a bet where he hit his hand, but then he makes a small river bet, possibly for value?

I dunno, its weird but I think I raise the flop and see what happens.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
These bet sizes often mean that, on the flop you didn't raise so you must have high cards that haven't paired yet peeling one off. On the low turn, he bets bigger to make you fold said big cards but you don't do it. On the river, he wants to showdown cheapish because he has no freaking idea what you have but has something with showdown value himself. You are rarely ahead on the end but every once in a while they'll show you a small pocket pair.

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I feel like this sittuation is either a mild hand looking for a showdown, like you describe, or something like 89s or 88's that put out a feeler on the flop and is then looking for value on turn and river.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

i raise the flop here. and the way its played i find somewhere to fold unless i think he is weak and I am considering a bluff, or i have a read that he is way aggro. but when 4/5 players bets the turn like that they are ahead more than 4/5 times. he is betting out twice OOP against a pfr.

i hate these spots too, they are 100% pain if you dont have a read. and usually are if you do anyway. i like to bet the flop or raise a small bet like this and check behind on the turn, most passive TAG players will check to you on the river or vbet if they are ahead. if they are extra aggressive I might call a bluffy bet.

either way if a person wants to bluff off a pair of nines here while OOP its all they can eat.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

I read him as

Flop: "I bet my draws small and my made hands big. I'm on a draw, and since the flop is rainbow, I'm on an OESD."

Turn: "I made my straight, betting bigger now."

River: "I'm surprised you're still here, but since you are I'll just value bet this puppy."

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have any experience with these bet sizes in this situation? What do you think they mean? He bets tiny on the flop, reasonable on the turn, and then small again on the river? Weird. And I viewed a flop raise as a bluff essentially, so I wasn't too happy about it, but I didn't want to fold, but I don't really like my call...I suck at poker.

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I remember a good post by KKF about these marginal spots where he advised to raise it up on the flop. I can't seem to find it though. Your right it's pretty much like a bluff, cause your done if called. But your hand while it may be best is really weak and vunerable to a crap load of cards and you won't feel comfortable calling down as bets get bigger on each street (sans a good read of course). So just put pressure on the flop and win the pot right there. I feel good about putting occasional pressure on the flop with air, vulnerable crap like this, semi-bluffs and Monsters. I feel fine raising the first two cause it's a simple muck if villian raises or stays in the pot. Those WA/WB spots with a less vulnerable hand I'm often calling to see the turn and villians action there. Or with a less vunerable hand like a big Overpair when there is a flush draw and if it blanks on the turn we have much better equity against their range. I know you have advocated this in the past as well.

Ghaz's explaination on the betting sequence was what popped into my head on first thought. He puts you on overs and bets weak hoping you'll fold. Since it pretty much blanks on the turn he fire's big trying to get a fold.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have any experience with these bet sizes in this situation? What do you think they mean? He bets tiny on the flop, reasonable on the turn, and then small again on the river? Weird. And I viewed a flop raise as a bluff essentially, so I wasn't too happy about it, but I didn't want to fold, but I don't really like my call...I suck at poker.

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On the flop, depending on the opponent, I often find it is either a random draw or something like A9. I think Ghaz has the turn and river bets pretty nailed.

On the river you have to call for the times it was some PP, but I expect to be beaten pretty often.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I read him as

Flop: "I bet my draws small and my made hands big. I'm on a draw, and since the flop is rainbow, I'm on an OESD."

Turn: "I made my straight, betting bigger now."

River: "I'm surprised you're still here, but since you are I'll just value bet this puppy."

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This is my take as well FWIW. It's still a tough situation, but I don't think he has trips. IMO, had that been the case he would have been more likely to check the turn, trying to induce a bluff.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

My take ...

Flop "Im strong, please raise me"
Turn "Bah, you didnt raise me ... have THIS"
River "Sh1t the flush got there, better block"

Alternate line
Flop "Im drawing, please keep it cheap ... not that it matters, Im planning to call your raise"
Turn "Made my str8 ... HAVE THIS"
River "damn the flush got there, better block"

Course, it could be 77 :-).

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

Definately raise the flop, he didnt even pot it.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

I think he flopped an OESD and hit it on the turn.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

All,

These are really great responses. Thanks, guys. I'm quite interested in hearing more about if you raise the flop and he calls and you check the turn behind and he bets (either small or big) on the river do you ever call? Also, as played on the flop, does anyone do anything differently on the turn or river?

TWP

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

Raise the flop, I think a re-raise allows you to get away and it might get you to the river free where you can call a value bet for a cheap showdown.

As played, fold the turn. At the 200's , when I come across guys betting like this it seems to be they have a solid (set or 3rd nut straight), but not great hand and don't know how to play it, but they know enough to know they should be betting. So they bet goofy amounts which have no rhyme or reason to a thinking player.

If this guy was bluffing three barrels, then you have just found an undiscovered ATM.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

We of course check behind on the turn. Ill prob fold to almost all river bets, except maybe like 1/3 pot or so. If he bets less than half I will do some thinking (and prob muck), if he bets more than half I am mucking 100% of the time.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

These don't seem like weird bet sizes at all for an over pair (or AK). Flop there are no obvious draws so he bets 1/2 pot - textbook. Turn - there is now a spades draw so he bets 2/3 pot, not to give this draw odds - a little weird, because it is a backdor draw, but ok. And the river is a blocking bet against the mad back door flush draw.

Edit: Oh, and raise the flop.

Edit edit: And I know there is a straight draw, but that is not an "obvious" draw to most players at this level.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

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well hello calling station

I probably raise that flop and then get out if the turn doesn't help me

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I agree this line seems best. When BB calls the raise out of postion I think you must put him on a strong hand. Unless your image says otherwise, there is no reason for the BB to call OOP. Raise 50 then shut down if he calls.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

Well I'm a total donkey, so treat this more like a question than an opinion [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Wouldn't his bets make sense if he was holding 67(s) or pocket 8's?

Flop he picks up a straight draw or sees just one overcard to his pair so he bets out a bit testingly.

Turn he makes his straight or set but also sees the draw for a bigger straight and/or flush so he bets out for value and to not give pot-odds for any flush/straight-draws.

Ts on river makes both a flush and a bigger straight possible, so he makes a blocking bet.

Or..?

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have any experience with these bet sizes in this situation? What do you think they mean? He bets tiny on the flop, reasonable on the turn, and then small again on the river? Weird. And I viewed a flop raise as a bluff essentially, so I wasn't too happy about it, but I didn't want to fold, but I don't really like my call...I suck at poker.

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i dont think flop raise is a bluff at all, but that depends on whether you are gonna be putting more money in the pot.

that said, i really dont like river call. turn i think is either some sort of decent pair with something extra, or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or 67 and you're losing to almost all of that by the river.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

I take it to mean A9
Edit: His thoughts being, TPTK bet and see what happens figuring overpair will raise. He becomes more confident when another under flops, and river he wants a showdown.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

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I'm quite interested in hearing more about if you raise the flop and he calls and you check the turn behind and he bets (either small or big) on the river do you ever call?

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i [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] reads, I will fold 4/5 times and always against tightish players but sometimes i will consider calling if he is a player i have seen bluffing before. but standard play is definitely fold.

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Also, as played on the flop, does anyone do anything differently on the turn or river?

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fold somewhere. usually the turn

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

My read is that BB has a premium hand. He's calling your raise, and then immediately baiting the PFR with a small flop bet. I'd say TT+ are really very likely from villian.

With that being said, I get the impression that his flop bet was a teaser please-raise-me-so-I-can-shove-in-a-truckload type of bet, and when you called, I think he is squarely putting you on unpaired overs.

A straight draw seems unbelievably unlikely to me, as the only one getting there on the turn is 67, which I wouldn't say would be likely to call that PFR out of position.

With that being said, I think with your line you're going to see villian turn up a big(ger) pair most of the time.

Seeing all the action after the flop, I'd get into my way back machine and raise the flop as many have suggested and see if you can pick off someone trying to snap off the PFR on a ragged board, and then eject like crazy unless you hit a miracle turn card (a 7 or even a 9 wouldn't _thrill_ me, but they'd probably get me to showdown, picking up the diamond draw or the sweet 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would keep me in as well).

I'd need something that could beat say JJ, imho.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

It's a funny old line, no doubt. I'm not sure he actually has a real strategy - I think he's blundering about a bit. My guess is he also had a weakish 9, and in fact I'm going to stick my neck out and say 98. So he thinks:

Flop - cool, top pair. Weak kicker though. Maybe I'll bet a little under half the pot - might take it down here or milk a bit more out of a worse hand.

Turn - all right! top two. I'm going to bet the pot, or thereabouts - I really hope he calls.

River - woah - 89T on the board and a three flush. This guy stuck around - maybe he had some kind of draw. I can't check but I can't bear the thought of making a big bet which gets raised and having to lay it down. Guess I'll make a blocking bet, which will get some more value out because I'm probably ahead ... aren't I?.

(Not saying I agree with the above logic btw [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

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These bet sizes often mean that, on the flop you didn't raise so you must have high cards that haven't paired yet peeling one off. On the low turn, he bets bigger to make you fold said big cards but you don't do it. On the river, he wants to showdown cheapish because he has no freaking idea what you have but has something with showdown value himself. You are rarely ahead on the end but every once in a while they'll show you a small pocket pair.

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ghazban reads hands well...

i'd probably raise the river as a value bluff

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

looks like a small pocket pair or an OESD on the flop. I think this is the nl equivalent of when calling just can't be right. I raise the flop but the turn is gonna suck if he smooth calls me.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

Hate to dredge up this old thread, but what were the results? I want to know what he took that line with. You should tell me his SN, too [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

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These bet sizes often mean that, on the flop you didn't raise so you must have high cards that haven't paired yet peeling one off. On the low turn, he bets bigger to make you fold said big cards but you don't do it. On the river, he wants to showdown cheapish because he has no freaking idea what you have but has something with showdown value himself. You are rarely ahead on the end but every once in a while they'll show you a small pocket pair.

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ghazban reads hands well...

i'd probably raise the river as a value bluff

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You are right, he does. And I thought about raising the river, but figured that he would probably call with any hand better than mine. In any case, he had AdTd.

Re: Totally lost TPWK - weird hand
 

Without reading responses (sry)...


I would probably make a solid flop raise and shove out any remotely marginal hand he could have. I'd do this with air too, but while you're often ahead your hand is so vulnerable (and you have no idea which of a bazillion bad turn cards hit your opponent) that you want this pot now.

Given that you called I fold the turn. His flop bet seems like a probe to see if you have anything you like (which is why I raise most everything), but his turn bet says "whoa this board is getting scary and I need to protect my made hand". A9 or JJ or something make sense, so would T9, but I don't see him wuss-betting the flop and following through with a hard turn bet here on a pure bluff. His river bet says "OK this board is really scary but my hand still has a lot of value so I want to bet it". I mean I wouldnt be shocked if he turned up AA.

Everett