Two Plus Two Older Archives - Another Early Push

Two Plus Two Older Archives (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/index.php)

- One-table Tournaments (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34)

- - Another Early Push (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=335824)

Another Early Push

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
Hero (t800)
Button (t870)
SB (t785)
BB (t745)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t60, Button calls t60, 2 folds, MP1 calls t45, MP2 calls t45.

My read at this point that I most likely have the best hand before the flop. Lack of reraising indicates no high pocket pairs out there. Second hand of the tourney and I have no reads yet on anyone.

Flop: (t265) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 bets t40, Hero raises to t200, Button folds, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to t450, Hero raises to t700, MP2 raises to t740 (All-In), Hero calls t40 (All-In).

Possible straight draw but no flush. I'm thinking that Im against unpaired high cards so I bet. The raise should have scared me but didn't because Im thinking that they might think Im trying to steal the pot.

The reraise was supposed to be all in but I left some chips behind. Accidently.

Turn: (t1745) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1745) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1745

So was it a terrible move pushing against the reraise? I think that if nothing else it was a hasety decision. I should have taken a few seconds to think through villians likely hand possibilities. What do you put villian on?

Greg

Re: Another Early Push

Either an A7, set of 5's or 8's??? I think both of you bet too much on the flop, who wants to risk so much without a very strong hand so early on...now I think about even more he had to have a small set or just a donkey???

Re: Another Early Push

What buy-in is this?

Re: Another Early Push

[ QUOTE ]
Either an A7, set of 5's or 8's??? I think both of you bet too much on the flop, who wants to risk so much without a very strong hand so early on...now I think about even more he had to have a small set or just a donkey???

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have posted that it is the $5+1's. I'm just getting started with sit and go's. I just finished HOH V1 and am half way through V2. It is clear in retrospect that villian probably had a set. Since I was not pot comitted I should have laid down the JJ rather than pushing. However, I dont tend to give the 5+1'ers very much credit and just was putting him on high cards or TP with a good kicker, thinking I was way ahead and he was trying to push me off the pot.

I dont think that a pot sized bet though was a bad play to lead off with. I thought that most likely I was ahead and since I was in bad position I wanted to lead out with a strong bet. I didnt want to let villian in cheap in case he had a straight draw.

I guess that it was basic HOH to not push here though. I just couldnt give villian more credit. The funny thing is later in the day in a different tourney, I limped 44 and hit a set busting out a guy in exactly the same fashion that I was busted out here.

I dont have the tools to run a +/-Ev evaluation here. Can anyone tell against the range of hands if this was a +EV push?

Greg

Re: Another Early Push

laying an overpair at any level up to $50 is a bad idea IMO.

i think raising more preflop would have been the best move here.

Re: Another Early Push

[ QUOTE ]
laying an overpair at any level up to $50 is a bad idea IMO.

i think raising more preflop would have been the best move here.

[/ QUOTE ]
How much would you raise?

I just poped out the standerd 4xBB raise. This early in the tourney it was not a lot but I didnt want to steal with a legit hand. I wanted to at least get one caller.

If you wouldnt lay the hand down then you would have to go all in because calling the raise would leave me pot comitted anyways. Does that mean the push is correct?

Greg

Re: Another Early Push

With two limpers at the 5+1, I am raising more than 4BB.

Re: Another Early Push

I think raising more like 7-8xBB would be better. Villain got 5 to 1 on his preflop call, so he could have pretty much anything.

Re: Another Early Push

It's fine. I don't fold overpairs early in anything under a 50, even if someone put a gun to my head. It's never -EV to call w an overpair in a $5 sng...just too many donks to consider ever folding.

Re: Another Early Push

[ QUOTE ]
It's fine. I don't fold overpairs early in anything under a 50, even if someone put a gun to my head. It's never -EV to call w an overpair in a $5 sng...just too many donks to consider ever folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the lesson that I should learn is

a) think about the spectrum of possible hands a little more carefully. I think now that the number of hands I am ahead of is much more than the number I am behind and would probably push anyways.

b) Not to get too results oriented about my play

c) Increase the PF raise with limpers in front since they are more likely to come along for the ride anyways. Especially early on in the tourney.

Greg

Re: Another Early Push

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's fine. I don't fold overpairs early in anything under a 50, even if someone put a gun to my head. It's never -EV to call w an overpair in a $5 sng...just too many donks to consider ever folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the lesson that I should learn is

a) think about the spectrum of possible hands a little more carefully. I think now that the number of hands I am ahead of is much more than the number I am behind and would probably push anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

While there are a lot of idiots at that level, I don't like this line of thinking here.

Villain led out on the flop, and then re-raised you for more than half his stack. This is a considerable show of strength. Unless you have witnessed him being an idiot in a prior hand, you are probably behind and should lay this down. What hands does he lead out and re-raise with that you're ahead of?

Most of the players at this level are loose and weak players. When they bet, it usually means they have something. (What that something is, you need to figure out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

I just don't think villain is re-raising you with any hands you beat. With A8, A7 or a straight draw, he is calling your bet, not re-raising you. TT and 99 are possibilities, but again, I really think those hands call instead of re-raising.

Re: Another Early Push

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Either an A7, set of 5's or 8's??? I think both of you bet too much on the flop, who wants to risk so much without a very strong hand so early on...now I think about even more he had to have a small set or just a donkey???

[/ QUOTE ]

I see the same play a lot with 66 or A6

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I totally agree with you. And as this is a low limit $5 sng I think these players could have a number of donkey hands. Preflop you need to raise more to get the donkeys out or at least make them pay big for seeing the flop.

A bet of 110 preflop is probably your best move here, if you get two callers and one player moves all-in you have to think.)

A) I can probably fold this and find a better spot or
B) +EV against these low limit Gus Hansen wannabes I call

Like I said I think you played the hand fine on the flop, you just need to to make'em pay preflop.

Re: Another Early Push

Listen it's possible that he flopped the nut straight, a set, or two pair. But even in $30s, I see donks make moves like this with top and middle pair. If he flopped a set, youre in bad shape. If he flopped 2 pr, you've got a fair amount of outs. If he flopped nut str8, you're screwed, but it's pretty unlikely.

If this was later in the tourney, I think it through. But this early when every idiot is still alive, I just don't see how you can fold an overpair.

Thinking logically is incorrect here, because they aren't.

Re: Another Early Push

I am never folding this hand on that flop in a $5+$1.