10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (5 handed)

Hero ~($7700)
Villain ~($7400)

SB is a good tricky player (27/16 after~300 hands). I think he plays usually with higher stakes(25/50)

Preflop: Hero is on Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG Folds, CO folds, Hero Raises (80$), Villain on SB raises(290$),BB Folds, I call (210$)

Flop: ($600) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain bets (480$), Hero raises to (1440$), Villain calls (960$)

Turn: (3480$) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain bets (1720$). Pot is now 5200$, he has 4k$ left and I cover. Comments are welcome. Now what would you do here, and what do you think he has?

Thanks for your thoughts!

-FuzzyLogic

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

Have you seen him reraise preflop at all before? With what? Only premium pairs? If not at all, have you only been with him a short time?

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

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Have you seen him reraise preflop at all before? With what? Only premium pairs? If not at all, have you only been with him a short time?

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I looked my PT stats again and I found ~1400 hands with him. He's 24/16. Open raises with wide range of hands, even from blinds if there are only limpers. Has fired more than once full 3-barrel bluffs etc. But I couldn't find any hand which woulda gone to showdown where he re-raised pre-flop.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

It's hands like this (maybe not at these stakes), that I go broke on. Possible hands for villian (A,K,Q,J)maybe AKc and if you're lucky AcJ. Only 2 of these have you dominated. I love his Turn bet regardless. It's just enough to make you make a mistake. A Lederer play. The thing is, he should know that if you call here, he's getting the rest on the river regardless. Because in this instance I am giving him credit (that he is not making a mistake, but playing you), I fold.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

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Have you seen him reraise preflop at all before? With what? Only premium pairs? If not at all, have you only been with him a short time?

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I looked my PT stats again and I found ~1400 hands with him. He's 24/16. Open raises with wide range of hands, even from blinds if there are only limpers. Has fired more than once full 3-barrel bluffs etc. But I couldn't find any hand which woulda gone to showdown where he re-raised pre-flop.

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Sorry, im messing this up. I somehow confused him to another player, with almost the same nickname. So my original description stays. He is 26/16, and I've played with him only 300 hands. He hasnt done anything too crazy.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

If villain isn't very aggressive and tricky, I think there are only three hands he can have here-JJ, AA and AKc. If you don't think he'll bet the river unimproved with AKc I might call the turn bet and fold the river if he bets. Folding here is definitely plausible if:
a) You don't think he's very aggro and would be betting a stubborn KK or a flush draw here
b) You don't think he would block bet AKc on the turn
c) You think he's betting the river with AK

Also, if you put in a pot sized raise on the turn it becomes a lot easier to figure out if he has clubs here and takes a lot of the guessing out of this hand.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

Three things make this a great spot to shove it all-in:

-your opponent is tricky
-your opponent is good
-your opponent plays 25/50

All of these point to the likelyhood of you being way ahead and that your opponent might call.
EDIT: I reserve the right to revoke these statements if opponent isn't actually who OP says he is. If he's a typical rock at the 10/20NL, I'll fold because of the PF 3-bet.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

i think the hand that best fits the action thus far is AcKc, and he made a blocking bet here on the turn. i dont think he bets out 80% of the pot on the flop with top set (maybe more like 1/2 the pot makes sense), making JJ less likely. AA is obviously possible. that being said, id get all of my money in there.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

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Have you seen him reraise preflop at all before? With what? Only premium pairs? If not at all, have you only been with him a short time?

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked my PT stats again and I found ~1400 hands with him. He's 24/16. Open raises with wide range of hands, even from blinds if there are only limpers. Has fired more than once full 3-barrel bluffs etc. But I couldn't find any hand which woulda gone to showdown where he re-raised pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, im messing this up. I somehow confused him to another player, with almost the same nickname. So my original description stays. He is 26/16, and I've played with him only 300 hands. He hasnt done anything too crazy.

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This makes me think that shoving it all-in is a good move. I stand by my original post.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

get em in there.....

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

you are going broke in this hand

so you want to extract most out of worse hands

that's why you push now when worse hands may call before bad river card kills action and also to kill odds for draws

i hope you won the 14k pot

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

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Also, if you put in a pot sized raise on the turn it becomes a lot easier to figure out if he has clubs here and takes a lot of the guessing out of this hand.

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pot sized raise would make it ~8500 str8... im assuming theyre playing table stakes here, so if he raises he just gonna go all in.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

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Also, if you put in a pot sized raise on the turn it becomes a lot easier to figure out if he has clubs here and takes a lot of the guessing out of this hand.

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pot sized raise would make it ~8500 str8... im assuming theyre playing table stakes here, so if he raises he just gonna go all in.

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Whoops-I meant to say a pot sized raise on the flop...

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

tough hand. You cant be scared of AA however JJ is a distinct possibility. I feel that AA would re-raise you on the flop most of the time here.

Likely hands are AKs, AJ is very unlikey if hes as you say he is and JJ. Based on putting him on these two hands I would flat call the turn and re-evaluted the river.

I would not be putting my whole stack in here unless the A or J pair or you hit your case 8...any club river is an easy fold..if another J or A hits i would feel very good about my hand. Unimproved I guess I would go for a blocking bet..maybe 2k?

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

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I would not be putting my whole stack in here unless the A or J pair or you hit your case 8...any club river is an easy fold..if another J or A hits i would feel very good about my hand. Unimproved I guess I would go for a blocking bet..maybe 2k?

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This doesn't make much sense to me. If you're going to fold the river unimproved, why would a club matter? If you think he has AcKc, you get it all in on the turn. If you put him on AA orr JJ, you fold on the turn. Does that sound right?

ChewyMint

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

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tough hand. You cant be scared of AA however JJ is a distinct possibility. I feel that AA would re-raise you on the flop most of the time here.


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AA almost never 3-bets with deep stacks in this spot-a very likely line is to call the raise then bet the turn and fold to a raise because you then know for sure you're behind.

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

Youll probably have to go ahead and shove it on the turn. With 44 you might have been able to pass.

But, lets see it from his view. Betting AKcc like that on the turn seems very awkward to me. And, if he's a really good player and has AA/JJ here, wouldn't he go for a checkraise allin here? It's by far the best move. The pot is so big that a bet from you, his opponent, in the range of the pot, would make him comitted. And, if he checks and you do have 44/88 (or JJ if he himself has got AA) you have an obligatory bet pretty much, and if it is in the range of 80-100% of the pot you would have to call his checkraise allin as well, pretty much. The thing is, he cannot know if you have the Axcc by playing the way he is right now. It would be natural for Axcc to just call the turnbet, since hes got nutouts, and might be ahead vs KK/QQ. Then, if a club hits on the river, what is he gonna do? He'd probably have to check/fold vs an allin, since Axcc would perfectly well fit with how the hand was played. The good thing about checking with the intent of checkraising allin here is of course that he would bust all sets since theyd have to bet and would be comitted to call his raise. The only drawback is of course that would totally be in line for Axcc to check behind on the turn, and if a club falls on the river he might have to fold to allinbluff a few times. But, on the bright side of that, if a club doesnt call he can getcalled for quite some money on the river if he bets out and his opponent with the Axcc thinks he might be betting KK/QQ to make his opponent fold an ace.

But, enough ranting of HE should have played the hand, I dont think you can get away of this one. As I said, with bottomset its actually perhaps possible, but in this case, I guess you just have to shove it in. And, if he does have AA/JJ, I don't like his bet for half the pot on turn at all, and neither if he has AKcc.

One last thing to note is that if he indeed has AA, whether he has the A of clubs is of great consequence. If he does, he narrows your hands by quite a lot, and he has to play accordingly. (For example, the above scenario with check/check on the turn would make it pretty much impossible to get paid on the river since his opponent couldnt in any way have an ace.)

(And no, since your checkraise pretty much has no fold equity at all, you obviously dont have to do this move with draws as well. Remember, the checkraise is actullaly a "valuecheckraise", not like a checkraise allin with much larger stacks compared to the pot on the turn, which has to be done with both draws and sets to not be to easily read.)

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

Thank you for your replies. They gave me something to think about. His half pot bet on the turn somehow freezed me. I couldnt decide whether he had JJ/AA or was he drawing with A-x[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I made a questionable and probably bad decision a just called...

River(6920$): 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain moves all-in(3950$). Pot is huge (10870$) and its 3950$ more to call. His somewhat weak turn bet made me think he was on a draw and he was moving in with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-x[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Or if I was behind he would show me JJ or AA. I called. Any thoughts?

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

Heheh. Are you now going to tell us he had QTcc?

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

dude, calling the turn and folding the river would be pretty awful.

Results
 

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Heheh. Are you now going to tell us he had QTcc?

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No, I'm gonna tell he had 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for str8. Lesson learned. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20NL 6max, Deep stacked. Decision time
 

I haven't looked at any responses but it looks like Ax of clubs. RAISE!

Re: Results
 

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Heheh. Are you now going to tell us he had QTcc?

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No, I'm gonna tell he had 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for str8. Lesson learned. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Raise the turn in the future! I'm going broke with this hand.

Re: Results
 

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Heheh. Are you now going to tell us he had QTcc?

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No, I'm gonna tell he had 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for str8. Lesson learned. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Sick man. Stick it in on the turn (and no, I'm not being results oriented). I asked Diablo earlier and he said the same.