$33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

2nd hand, UTG limpers, UTG+1 makes it 100 to go, I fold AKo in MP.

I think calling is the worst play here, and don't want to argue that.

Pushing, I am almost surely a coinflip. I folded because I thought by avoiding a flip (which might be marginally +cEV because I might run into AQ), I can stay around until bubble where I have a bigger edge than in this hand.

thoughts?

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

folding is fine here.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

Pushing is not the only option here.
Why not a raise to, say, 300?
Too early for a push, IMHO.

Uncle Wiggly

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing, I am almost surely a coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know where you people get this stuff.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
folding is fine here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pushing, I am almost surely a coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know where you people get this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
what does he raise 9bb with on level 1? some people do this with AA KK, which just makes my hand even worse against this range.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

This AK thing is bugging me. Not your hand, just AK in general. I read Matt Matros' about pushing with AK article recently and it made mathematical sense. Seems like a dangerous strategy to me but it is so logical that it annoys me. One day I'll grow some balls and give the strategy a go.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
This AK thing is bugging me. Not your hand, just AK in general. I read Matt Matros' about pushing with AK article recently and it made mathematical sense. Seems like a dangerous strategy to me but it is so logical that it annoys me. One day I'll grow some balls and give the strategy a go.

[/ QUOTE ]i have an edge when the blinds become a certain size, which doesn't really apply in a MTT. thats why i dont need to take this.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling is the worst play here, and don't want to argue that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you are dead set against calling, then folding is your only play. Most likely he has AK or a middle pair with a raise of that size in lvl 1.

So, if you push and are called you're most likely spliting the pot or a coinflip and you don't really want to be flipping coins this early.

If your are not called, is t140 worth it for the risk of being called?

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pushing, I am almost surely a coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know where you people get this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
what does he raise 9bb with on level 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

not only are you basically assuming you have no folding equity against medium pairs, you're assuming that he can only have pairs.

he raised to 100, which is about 7x bb, at party, and he did it behind a limper.

lastly, you aren't giving up ev when you avoid getting all your money in with a worst hand.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This AK thing is bugging me. Not your hand, just AK in general. I read Matt Matros' about pushing with AK article recently and it made mathematical sense. Seems like a dangerous strategy to me but it is so logical that it annoys me. One day I'll grow some balls and give the strategy a go.

[/ QUOTE ]i have an edge when the blinds become a certain size, which doesn't really apply in a MTT. thats why i dont need to take this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pushing, I am almost surely a coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know where you people get this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
what does he raise 9bb with on level 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

not only are you basically assuming you have no folding equity against medium pairs, you're assuming that he can only have pairs.

he raised to 100, which is about 7x bb, at party, and he did it behind a limper.

lastly, you aren't giving up ev when you avoid getting all your money in with a worst hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
what do you recommend the best play is?

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pushing, I am almost surely a coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know where you people get this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
what does he raise 9bb with on level 1? some people do this with AA KK, which just makes my hand even worse against this range.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, thanks for the edit.

now that you're saying he could have AA and KK if he's an average party player, dosen't that even more damage the idea that you're almost surely a coinflip?

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

i'm not saying folding is wrong, i'm saying your rationale sucks.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
folding is fine here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

i edited that post within a minute of making it, btw.
[ QUOTE ]
i'm not saying folding is wrong, i'm saying your rationale sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
then what is a good rationale for folding it? my hand isn't a favorite against his range, i should preserve chips until i have think i have a bigger edge. what else?

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

you said you were avoiding a coinflip, not avoiding getting all your chips in bad.

there's a difference.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

also, i'm wondering what the point of hte post in the first place was, i mean all you said was "sometimes it's ok to fold AK preflop" basically, and well, everyone knows that.

c

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

Scoreboard update:

Citanul 56264 - gp? 0

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, if you push and are called you're most likely spliting the pot or a coinflip and you don't really want to be flipping coins this early.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems exactly backwards to me. I'd rather take a 50/50 on either being set until round 4, or being out and loading up another tourney, than play 3 or 4 rounds, and then try to double up or lose.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, if you push and are called you're most likely spliting the pot or a coinflip and you don't really want to be flipping coins this early.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems exactly backwards to me. I'd rather take a 50/50 on either being set until round 4, or being out and loading up another tourney, than play 3 or 4 rounds, and then try to double up or lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

you guys make my head hurt.

stop it.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

I just call, but pushing is fine.
The other option is a raise to 799.
If he calls check it down.
This has the same impact as a push but also maximizes cheesy thread equity b/c you provide yourself with a chance to come back from 1 chip and make a stupid post on this board about it.

There, thats my stategy post for the month of Nov.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, i'm wondering what the point of hte post in the first place was, i mean all you said was "sometimes it's ok to fold AK preflop" basically, and well, everyone knows that.

c

[/ QUOTE ]the point of the thread was to solve an argument i had with some people who thought it was a terrible fold. i wasn't trying to prove a point in posting this, i was trying to figure out if what i did was standard.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Scoreboard update:

Citanul 56264 - gp? 0

[/ QUOTE ]funny i guess????

i wasn't trying to argue, i was trying to learn something by asking questions.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, if you push and are called you're most likely spliting the pot or a coinflip and you don't really want to be flipping coins this early.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems exactly backwards to me. I'd rather take a 50/50 on either being set until round 4, or being out and loading up another tourney, than play 3 or 4 rounds, and then try to double up or lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

my god you are terrible, my head also hurts

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not saying folding is wrong, i'm saying your rationale sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

wats hte right rationale?

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
There, thats my stategy post for the month of Nov.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you wasted it on this crappy thread? I feel so unsatisfied.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

The right rationale is your cev is higher if you fold than if you don't.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

If you take a 50/50 flip here wont you increase your hourly rate?

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

You aren't 50/50. It's likely around 44/56, and there's a huge difference if you're going to make the hourly rate argument.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

why exactly is calling wrong?

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

I normally call here. At the $11s I push preflop because I utterly crush that range. The $33s are different enough that I probably call here, and I think calling has a lot going for it. First of all, if you catch an Ace then you stack AQ-AT and can eat a c-bet which should be in the 100-150 area, giving you some implied odds for calling. Second, if he does have a smaller pair, you can win the pot sometimes if he checks to you on a Q- or J-high flop. If you miss and the flop looks bad for you sometimes he checks to you anyways and you can grab a free turn card. I don't see many downsides to calling, really. Sure some of the time you drop 100 here and sometimes you make top pair and he makes a set, but calling takes all the bad sides of coinflips out and still lets you stack off against hands you dominate. I think folding is kind of poopy here honestly. AK in position against a PFR = Jeff's playing this pot.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
why exactly is calling wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think calling is wrong but the raise compared to the stack sizes makes this a close decision.

In a 1000 chip game I'd just call this.

In an 800 chip game I don't mind calling about 70 chips (standard raise) in this situation. 125 would be too much to call.

100 is on gray area.
In 11-22 I'd push this.
In 33 I don't like any option, but I'd probably push 75% of time and call 25% of time depending on my mood.

NP: Enslaved - Neogenesis

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

folding here is perfectly acceptable.

Re: $33, passing up an edge by folding AK
 

i think i'd either call or fold. maybe, when i'm in gambool-mode, i'd push this.
the one thing i can't see me doing is throw in somekind of re-raise, which is imo the worst option.