Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

Ok, so let's assume the following: you're a devout Christian, married, with one teenage child. And, free will exists.

Now...

You've raised your child in a Christian environment. Not an overwhelming one, but a good one nonetheless. You, your spouse and child have attended mass each Sunday for the past decade or more, and maybe there was a Bible study session or Sunday school every here and there.

Your sixteen year old child comes home from school one day with disturbing news: he has been thinking a lot lately, and has decided that he doesn't believe in Jesus, Heaven, Hell, or God.

You sit down and talk with him for a few hours, but unfortunately, the two of you seem to run into a logical wall. Your child is unconvinced, and furthermore expresses that he would no longer wish to go to Church with you and your spouse.

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless. Obviously you want your child to believe, but he is a human being and will, ultimately, make up his own mind regardless of what happens.

What do you do?

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so let's assume the following: you're a devout Christian, married, with one teenage child. And, free will exists.

Now...

You've raised your child in a Christian environment. Not an overwhelming one, but a good one nonetheless. You, your spouse and child have attended mass each Sunday for the past decade or more, and maybe there was a Bible study session or Sunday school every here and there.

Your sixteen year old child comes home from school one day with disturbing news: he has been thinking a lot lately, and has decided that he doesn't believe in Jesus, Heaven, Hell, or God.

You sit down and talk with him for a few hours, but unfortunately, the two of you seem to run into a logical wall. Your child is unconvinced, and furthermore expresses that he would no longer wish to go to Church with you and your spouse.

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless. Obviously you want your child to believe, but he is a human being and will, ultimately, make up his own mind regardless of what happens.

What do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to let the child do what he wants. You can only pray and wait...attempts at persuasion are useless at some point.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

Jam your dogmatic propaganda right down your son's throat until he is totally indifferent toward everything... ask my mom.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

If neither we nor God can interfere with free will, what good does prayer do other than alleviate our anxiety?

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

I sit back, and wait for an opportunity. His mind is closed to God. Fine. I let him know, if he is ready, to come and talk to me. (Maybe in 30 years....) I pray that I will have an opportunity, and recognize it as such, where he will suffer enough to grow, or open his mind. People grow when they are in pain. Some of the biggest success stories are from people who had unhappy childhoods. I would let him screw up his life like I did, hoping that he would live long enough, to mature enough, to realize things aren't working for him. Some people are just to stubborn /proud/arrogant for that to happen (EVER). But you have to keep being kind to them. That kindness eventually starts to sink in (hopefully) and the recipient, starts to get curious. Why is he so nice to me? Why is he so happy all the time? Curiousity led to God.

Hence: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Good luck with your kid....

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If neither we nor God can interfere with free will, what good does prayer do other than alleviate our anxiety?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. Excellent. I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be even be a difficult situation. The child still has a choice to accept or reject, however. Most people go through a "rock bottom" of some sort during their lifetime...during which questions of purpose in life are asked. It is during these times that the true choices are made. For instance, a drug addict does not really "choose" to take drugs everyday. That is simply what the drug addict does. Normally, they don't even conciously think about the choice they have. When the drug addict gets arrested or almost dies, however, it puts them in the position to at least consider what they are doing and if they want to continue. Some drug addicts swear it off forever and some immediately go back for more drugs, aware of what they are doing. The times of choice are those "dark nights of the soul" that are brought on by an outside influence. In God's eyes, all you have to do is make the correct decision one time.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

"Dear God -

Please make my child horribly miserable, so that he becomes so depressed, that his only hope is to start believing in you again. Make him deathly ill... an almost fatal car accident might work... make him utterly hopeless. Bring him to the point where life for him is not worth living -- complete dispair. Then, Lord, may he come back to your loving arms.

Love in You,
-- Concerned Parent"

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

Thats exactly what I heard when he wrote that.

All I know is that as an atheist, if my kid grows up believing in Jesus, after I've made sure that he really knows what that means, Im gonna leave him the hell alone.

Whatever floats your boat. Like I've said before, some christians seem to have lost the part of the bible that says "judge not, lest ye be judged first". This loss even extends to their own children.

FWIW, my mom is a devout Catholic, and knows Im an atheist. She has told me that its my life, I can live it how I want, amidst dropping many hints that she too was an atheist at my age. She still prays for me and stuff, but doesnt pressure me.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]

If neither we nor God can interfere with free will, what good does prayer do other than alleviate our anxiety?


[/ QUOTE ]

Free Will is a red herring which we like to think is the overruling factor. Our hearts are compelled to that which we find beautiful or most desirable.

Its like a gameshow host shows us two doors. We get to choose (free will) whatever is behind the two doors. So the gameshow host opens the two doors. Behind door #1 is a hot steaming pile of fresh dog crap. Behind door #2 is a million dollars. Now, remember you have free will you can choose the pile of dog crap if you want and it is completely up to you. The Gameshow host isn't going to make you choose the money. But is this really a choice?

That is what Christianity is all about. Door #1 is a life lived for yourself in sin and ultimately hell and eternal damnation. Behind Door #2 is eternal life and purpose and fulfilment.

Praying is petitioning God to open the eyes of your child to see what is really behind door #1 and door #2. God has authority of our perceptions or else he wouldn't be sovereign.

-Gryph

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so let's assume the following: you're a devout Christian, married, with one teenage child. And, free will exists.

Now...

You've raised your child in a Christian environment. Not an overwhelming one, but a good one nonetheless. You, your spouse and child have attended mass each Sunday for the past decade or more, and maybe there was a Bible study session or Sunday school every here and there.

Your sixteen year old child comes home from school one day with disturbing news: he has been thinking a lot lately, and has decided that he doesn't believe in Jesus, Heaven, Hell, or God.

You sit down and talk with him for a few hours, but unfortunately, the two of you seem to run into a logical wall. Your child is unconvinced, and furthermore expresses that he would no longer wish to go to Church with you and your spouse.

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless. Obviously you want your child to believe, but he is a human being and will, ultimately, make up his own mind regardless of what happens.

What do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

listen to what your child says and be convinced. Now is the time to take the brave intellectual step and say there is no God.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thats exactly what I heard when he wrote that.



[/ QUOTE ]

The Christian parents believe that anything on this Earth is better than hell. I don't think anyone wishes ill on their child. Think about how much it hurts a parent to have to ground a child and keep him from going to an important event. I think that is the message...of course children grow up to become fully independant people...you can't force them to make a choice and there's no point in trying. If I had kids, I would simply teach them what I believe and let them make their own choices...I would not nag them in other words.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet my bottom dollar that you and your wife were "steered" to believe in Christianity. The evidence is overwhelming....most religous people have the religion of their upbringing. Do you really believe people aren't (as a general truth) "steered" in this way??

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet my bottom dollar that you and your wife were "steered" to believe in Christianity. The evidence is overwhelming....most religous people have the religion of their upbringing. Do you really believe people aren't (as a general truth) "steered" in this way??

[/ QUOTE ]

Steered yes...forced no. Your parents probably taught you not to steal. As a result, you're probably not a theif but they didn't make that decision for you.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet my bottom dollar that you and your wife were "steered" to believe in Christianity. The evidence is overwhelming....most religous people have the religion of their upbringing. Do you really believe people aren't (as a general truth) "steered" in this way??

[/ QUOTE ]

Steered yes...forced no. Your parents probably taught you not to steal. As a result, you're probably not a theif but they didn't make that decision for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said "forced". And you with me agree that steering is a viable option unlike the original poster (as a general statement). I'm an atheist but I live pretty much according to Chritian morals ( I find Islamic morals unacceptable in many respects, in contrast) I'm just amazed that so many who see their particular religion as being the only true one and which happens to be their parent's religion don't see any connection. Give me a child .......!

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

I'm thinking exorcism.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

Certainly, a young adult should be allowed to accept/decline his parent’s religion. He will at some point anyway. I think the actual answer to your question is more appropriate in the context of what is allowed and what not by the parent in general.

Some parents make it a must to attend family functions. Others (my nephew, who is in high school, for example, refuses to attend most family get-togethers - not unusual, I would guess.) make it optional. The same criteria should be used for Church functions. It depends on how one is raising their children is how I see it. (And I am not suggesting one is better than the other.)

I caught Oprah today (hey, I am secure in myself to be able to say that) and Michael Jordan was on with Charles Barkley. Barkley’s daughter is tall and has athletic abilities; but has no interest in basketball, he mentioned. He accepts it. He doesn’t seem to pleased with it, but what are you gonna do?

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet my bottom dollar that you and your wife were "steered" to believe in Christianity. The evidence is overwhelming....most religous people have the religion of their upbringing. Do you really believe people aren't (as a general truth) "steered" in this way??

[/ QUOTE ]

Steered yes...forced no. Your parents probably taught you not to steal. As a result, you're probably not a theif but they didn't make that decision for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said "forced". And you with me agree that steering is a viable option unlike the original poster (as a general statement). I'm an atheist but I live pretty much according to Chritian morals ( I find Islamic morals unacceptable in many respects, in contrast) I'm just amazed that so many who see their particular religion as being the only true one and which happens to be their parent's religion don't see any connection. Give me a child .......!

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly agree with you on both counts regarding the fact that steering is a viable option and that people should not blindly follow their parents without thinking through the issues themselves. Also, I'll have to agree with you about extremist Islam. Unfortunately, we have our own extremists. I think its deplorable when someone bombs an abortion clinic or kills a homosexual in the name of Christ....totally contrary to Christian teachings.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously you want your child to believe, but he is a human being and will, ultimately, make up his own mind regardless of what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Desperate situation.
solution below:

http://www.maths.qmw.ac.uk/~ade/brain-manual.html

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously you want your child to believe, but he is a human being and will, ultimately, make up his own mind regardless of what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Desperate situation.
solution below:

http://www.maths.qmw.ac.uk/~ade/brain-manual.html

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. I don't think its good for religious implications but how about poker? When I place my chips to the left "CALL, CALL, CALL" and when I place them to the left "FOLD, FOLD, FOLD"

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be EVEN be a difficult situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Mempho deserves this attack. He did not say that he necessarily wants harm to come to his child, he said he wanted God to influence his decision through whatever means an infinitely wiser-than-us entity can.

I disagree, however, with Mempho's notion that drug addicts don't "choose" to do drugs; they have as much choice as anyone else.

Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be even be a difficult situation. The child still has a choice to accept or reject, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is beginning to resemble a probabilistic model of choice.

God obviously doesn't determine for us whether we believe or don't believe, according to most Christian beliefs. Yet, some do and some don't. If it is impossible to determine which choice a person is going to choose, then I think we have to acknowledge the presence of a random element here.

However, I think it is also reasonable to assume that some people are more likely to believe than others. I'm sure some kind of competant demographic study would suggest that people are much more likely to be believers if they come from Christian homes, and less so if from other homes.

These factors are beyond our control. It is reasonable to hold God as responsible for them.

I think that what you are suggesting is that an intervention on God's part might increase the chances for the child to believe. Perhaps he has a 40% chance of eventually believing if he lives an easy-street life, and a 75% chance of believing if he experiences some kind of tragedy.

Is this an accurate analysis?

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be even be a difficult situation. The child still has a choice to accept or reject, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is beginning to resemble a probabilistic model of choice.

God obviously doesn't determine for us whether we believe or don't believe, according to most Christian beliefs. Yet, some do and some don't. If it is impossible to determine which choice a person is going to choose, then I think we have to acknowledge the presence of a random element here.

However, I think it is also reasonable to assume that some people are more likely to believe than others. I'm sure some kind of competant demographic study would suggest that people are much more likely to be believers if they come from Christian homes, and less so if from other homes.

These factors are beyond our control. It is reasonable to hold God as responsible for them.

I think that what you are suggesting is that an intervention on God's part might increase the chances for the child to believe. Perhaps he has a 40% chance of eventually believing if he lives an easy-street life, and a 75% chance of believing if he experiences some kind of tragedy.

Is this an accurate analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I think that while its not individually about statistics, it could be quantified statistically using a given population.

Thanks for your defense on the prior thread. It got out of hand. I think it is better to use the following scenario to illustrate:

You have a son that is addicted to crack cocaine. You have gone to every possible length to prevent it and to cease the addiction. Your child is 19 years old and you can not commit him to rehab. He will not go voluntarily. You are deeply sorrowed, believing your child will die if nothing can be done. You pray about the situation and God comes down to give you a choice:

A) God does not intervene and the child goes on "enjoying" his life. In three and a half years, he will OD and die.

B) Officer Barbary will go for his usual midnight visit to the doughnut shoppe. The Krispy Kreme machine will break and the place will not have any of the hot Krispy Kremes that Officer Barbary loves. As such, he will leave the doughnut shoppe with a cup of java in hand and will commence driving around to kill some time. Since he is on break, he decides to go look at the progress of the new mall to kill time. He sees your son at the construction site receiving a baggie from the dealer. He calls for backup and the arrest is made. You get your son an attorney who gets him a deal...4 months in jail on good behavior and a suspended sentence pending good behavior. Your son goes through rehab and enrolls in college, gets his degree, gets a nice job, gets married, and has a nice life.


Which do you choose? Obviously you don't want your son to go to jail, but that was the only way to send him the message.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your defense on the prior thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. I'm mean to idiots, not necessarily to Christians [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. I think that while its not individually about statistics, it could be quantified statistically using a given population.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosophically, this is a major problem. If free will has a random element, but is also influenced by other factors thus making it probabilistic, then I believe that it follows logically that God is unjust.

Here is why:

Obviously a deterministic model would prove God's injustice. If people were created with the knowledge (and therefore, the intent) on God's behalf that they would end up in one place or the other with no hope for intervention, then God is certainly unjust. This would be akin to God dealing someone the losing hand in poker; the man has no hope to win, and is destined to lose.

But there are still problems with a probabilistic model. Some people, through no fault of their own, are far more likely to believe in Jesus, while others are not given such a chance. In the scenario you described, it seems that some drug addicts are "unlucky" and don't encounter a series of incidents that cause them to be as likely to wisen up and accept Christ as other drug addicts who did get to survive traumatic experiences. Neither one has control over their circumstances; only God does.

Thus it would seem that God deals some of us AA, while he deals others 72o.

If this is the case, then God cannot be called just.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your defense on the prior thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. I'm mean to idiots, not necessarily to Christians [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. I think that while its not individually about statistics, it could be quantified statistically using a given population.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosophically, this is a major problem. If free will has a random element, but is also influenced by other factors thus making it probabilistic, then I believe that it follows logically that God is unjust.

Here is why:

Obviously a deterministic model would prove God's injustice. If people were created with the knowledge (and therefore, the intent) on God's behalf that they would end up in one place or the other with no hope for intervention, then God is certainly unjust. This would be akin to God dealing someone the losing hand in poker; the man has no hope to win, and is destined to lose.

But there are still problems with a probabilistic model. Some people, through no fault of their own, are far more likely to believe in Jesus, while others are not given such a chance. In the scenario you described, it seems that some drug addicts are "unlucky" and don't encounter a series of incidents that cause them to be as likely to wisen up and accept Christ as other drug addicts who did get to survive traumatic experiences. Neither one has control over their circumstances; only God does.

Thus it would seem that God deals some of us AA, while he deals others 72o.

If this is the case, then God cannot be called just.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that anyone can look at life as it exists on earth and determine that it's fair. I think that is made clear in the Bible. I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is not...?

If we are to conclude that God assigns different probabilities for our free will to take to, how can we call him a just god?

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is not...?

If we are to conclude that God assigns different probabilities for our free will to take to, how can we call him a just god?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we can. It's certainly a scary thought. My belief system (and this is an extremely personal belief system based upon Christianity but not on a particular sect or denomination) is based upon a just God. This is not in congruence with every Christian denomination's interpretation of God. This almost gets into the predestination/free will argument. I can't buy into predestination because I can't reconcile an all-loving God with that concept. I think the two would have to be mutually exclusive of each other.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is not...?

If we are to conclude that God assigns different probabilities for our free will to take to, how can we call him a just god?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either:

A) People follow a probabilistic model and God is unjust.

or

B) People follow a different model and God is just.


The problem is, which model is there for people to follow?
Random/pure free will: All human beings are given the same probability of accepting Christ.
Problems: This is clearly impossible. Different circumstances, such as family's religion, or as you've described, rock-bottom experiences, influence the probability of one's decision. Furthermore, if this were the real model and nothing could alter the probability of one's decisions, God is powerless and prayer is worthless.

Deterministic: All things are pre-determined due to causality.
Problems: This would suggest that God creates human beings with the foreknowledge and intent of their final destination. God cannot be considered just in this situation.



What other model is there?

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is not...?

If we are to conclude that God assigns different probabilities for our free will to take to, how can we call him a just god?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either:

A) People follow a probabilistic model and God is unjust.

or

B) People follow a different model and God is just.


The problem is, which model is there for people to follow?
Random/pure free will: All human beings are given the same probability of accepting Christ.
Problems: This is clearly impossible. Different circumstances, such as family's religion, or as you've described, rock-bottom experiences, influence the probability of one's decision. Furthermore, if this were the real model and nothing could alter the probability of one's decisions, God is powerless and prayer is worthless.

Deterministic: All things are pre-determined due to causality.
Problems: This would suggest that God creates human beings with the foreknowledge and intent of their final destination. God cannot be considered just in this situation.



What other model is there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have reconciled it. I have no scientific basis for my answer...just a theory that there may be an alternatives that neither are discussed in religious texts nor made implausible by relgious texts. I relay such a possibility of a just God that allows free will here (This was in reply to Lestat):



Just One Possibility

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I have reconciled it. I have no scientific basis for my answer...just a theory that there may be an alternatives that neither are discussed in religious texts nor made implausible by relgious texts. I relay such a possibility of a just God that allows free will here (This was in reply to Lestat):

Just One Possibility

[/ QUOTE ]

You suggest that God creates situations that "balance out" people's probabilities of accepting Christ. A born-and-raised drug addict may get a second chance that a born-and-raised Christian does not.

The problem is empirical. Most people born Christian die Christian. Most people born Muslim die Muslim. Obviously it is impossible to figure out what the exact probabilities are, but there is little question that some people are, quite simply, more likely to accept Christ than others.

This reverts back to the problem of the probabilistic model.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I have reconciled it. I have no scientific basis for my answer...just a theory that there may be an alternatives that neither are discussed in religious texts nor made implausible by relgious texts. I relay such a possibility of a just God that allows free will here (This was in reply to Lestat):

Just One Possibility

[/ QUOTE ]

You suggest that God creates situations that "balance out" people's probabilities of accepting Christ. A born-and-raised drug addict may get a second chance that a born-and-raised Christian does not.

The problem is empirical. Most people born Christian die Christian. Most people born Muslim die Muslim. Obviously it is impossible to figure out what the exact probabilities are, but there is little question that some people are, quite simply, more likely to accept Christ than others.

This reverts back to the problem of the probabilistic model.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you eventually show all people the same truth and allow them an eternity to accept it. You see, you are plunged into hell. You, being a logical thinker, are probably going to recall that you just died. You conclude you are in hell. You realize that God does exist. You call upon Christ and he lifts you out of hell. You are extremely thankful for his eternal mercy. This is not a "balancing out." It simply extends the opportunity for salvation beyond the grave. You could get out of hell through God's grace at any time.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You realize that God does exist. You call upon Christ and he lifts you out of hell. You are extremely thankful for his eternal mercy. This is not a "balancing out." It simply extends the opportunity for salvation beyond the grave. You could get out of hell through God's grace at any time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding me, right?

Any biblical description of hell describes it as an eternal separation from God. Once you go, there's no turning back. I could go digging through the good book and find passages to support this, but since I assume you know what I'm talking about, and since it's late and I'm tired, I'm not going to right now.

This completely trivializes life on Earth, invalidates Pascal's wager, and goes against the Bible.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You realize that God does exist. You call upon Christ and he lifts you out of hell. You are extremely thankful for his eternal mercy. This is not a "balancing out." It simply extends the opportunity for salvation beyond the grave. You could get out of hell through God's grace at any time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding me, right?

Any biblical description of hell describes it as an eternal separation from God. Once you go, there's no turning back. I could go digging through the good book and find passages to support this, but since I assume you know what I'm talking about, and since it's late and I'm tired, I'm not going to right now.

This completely trivializes life on Earth, invalidates Pascal's wager, and goes against the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]There are certain accounts of Christ, that during the three days before his resurection, christ was in hell saving gods choosen people as well as others who might have listened. The question of if god would do that again, is one that can be answered only by speculation.

Re: Dear Christians: Your child doesn\'t believe in Jesus. Now what?
 

Go Old Testament on him.

Bring out the stones.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You realize that God does exist. You call upon Christ and he lifts you out of hell. You are extremely thankful for his eternal mercy. This is not a "balancing out." It simply extends the opportunity for salvation beyond the grave. You could get out of hell through God's grace at any time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding me, right?

Any biblical description of hell describes it as an eternal separation from God. Once you go, there's no turning back. I could go digging through the good book and find passages to support this, but since I assume you know what I'm talking about, and since it's late and I'm tired, I'm not going to right now.

This completely trivializes life on Earth, invalidates Pascal's wager, and goes against the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]There are certain accounts of Christ, that during the three days before his resurection, christ was in hell saving gods choosen people as well as others who might have listened. The question of if god would do that again, is one that can be answered only by speculation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly it is speculative. I think another version of this can be found in the link that I posted under the topic regarding a fair God...it should still be on the first three pages.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are certain accounts of Christ, that during the three days before his resurection, christ was in hell saving gods choosen people as well as others who might have listened. The question of if god would do that again, is one that can be answered only by speculation.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are accounts that Paul Bunyan and the boogeyman served as his bodyguards while he was down there.

Re: Mempho, does this suggest a probabilistic model?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are certain accounts of Christ, that during the three days before his resurection, christ was in hell saving gods choosen people as well as others who might have listened. The question of if god would do that again, is one that can be answered only by speculation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly it is speculative. I think another version of this can be found in the link that I posted under the topic regarding a fair God...it should still be on the first three pages.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure most Christian denominations belive that nobody is sent to hell until Judgement Day, after Jesus returns, the dead are raised, and yada yada yada.