Watch Waxie Move Up
 

Standard?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter

Movin' On Up Hero ($28.80)
MP2 ($24.65)
MP3 ($23.80)
CO ($51.15)
Button ($12.30)
SB ($10.10)
BB ($30.05)
UTG ($26.90)
UTG+1 ($32.95)

Preflop: Movin' On Up Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Movin' On Up Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Movin' On Up Hero raises to $4.75</font>, MP3 calls $2.75.

Flop: ($9.85) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Movin' On Up Hero bets $10</font>, MP3 calls $10.

Turn: ($29.85) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Movin' On Up Hero bets $14.05 (All-In)</font>, MP3 calls $9.05 (All-In).

River: ($52.95) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $52.95

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

The pre-flop 3-bet SUCKS.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

Why? I want to end the hand right there. have you ever played AK OOP? It sucks when the flop looks like that.

If he 4-bets, I'm gone.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why? I want to end the hand right there. have you ever played AK OOP? It sucks when the flop looks like that.

If he 4-bets, I'm gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because without a read, he has a pretty narrow handrange or QQ/KK/AA/AK, and with the possible exception of AK, none of those are folding to a 3-bet.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

I think he'll re-raise with a hand range that is wider than that at 25NL and the call of the 3-bet elimates AA/KK, IMO.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

If you want to end the hand preflop you need to raise it more than $2.75 more.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

Actually, I want to end it by folding if he re-raises and I want him to just call if he has a hand &lt; AA-KK. If an A or K falls on the flop, I am usually ahead. I think villian grossley misplayed his hand and wouldn't have had the opporunity if I hadn't offered a lot of chances for him to make mistakes.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

Don't 3 bet AK unless guy is a LAG/maniac, and if you do make a real raise PF. Not getting away from that hand on the flop.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to end it by folding if he re-raises and I want him to just call if he has a hand &lt; AA-KK

[/ QUOTE ]
Some players will smooth call your 3bet. Why not end it when you miss on the flop, instead of folding before you get a cheap chance to outflop JJ-KK and any other random [censored] he has?

He called a PSB, he isn't scared of your ace. I think he either stacked you with his FH or you split with trip aces K kicker.

Also, by 3betting preflop, you are probably committing your stack if you hit with TPTK. Not necessarily a good thing.

[ QUOTE ]
Why? I want to end the hand right there. have you ever played AK OOP? It sucks when the flop looks like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't just playing it OOP, you're building a pot OOP! Now you got your stack in without any helpful information at all.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter

Hero ($55.75)
UTG+1 ($29.40)
MP1 ($3.60)
MP2 ($43.05)
MP3 ($17.30)
CO ($25)
Button ($29.30)
SB ($26.55)
BB ($37.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $2.25</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($5.10) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, MP3 calls $5.

Turn: ($17.10) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9.05</font>, MP3 calls $9.05 (All-In).

River: ($35.20) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $35.20

They are 2-betting at 25NL with A9.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

How do you move up to $25 NL?

Were you playing play money tables before this or what?

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

10NL at Stars. If you really want the total story of my poker journey, PM me and I'll tell you. It's pretty interesting/funny.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you move up to $25 NL?

Were you playing play money tables before this or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I laughed.

Anyways, if your going to 3-bet this preflop, raise it much more than that. I prefer just calling the initial raise.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I want to end it by folding if he re-raises and I want him to just call if he has a hand &lt; AA-KK. If an A or K falls on the flop, I am usually ahead. I think villian grossley misplayed his hand and wouldn't have had the opporunity if I hadn't offered a lot of chances for him to make mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thought process in this hand is not very clear. So you want to bloat the pot preflop against TT-QQ, waste more money and fold to a push against KK-AA. All this when you will only hit top pair about 35% of the time on the flop...

Edit: and QQ-TT are not going to payoff that often on an Axx or Akx or Kxx flop anyways.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

I disagree that TT-QQ won't pay off, even with the stack sizes in the OP.

I understand what you guys are saying, but I disagree. When I posted this hand, I was pretty sure I knew that you guys were going to attack the hell out of that 3-bet. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think he'll re-raise with a hand range that is wider than that at 25NL and the call of the 3-bet elimates AA/KK, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your opinion is wrong.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

See my other post in this thread for details.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

I'm not sure of the point of posting a hand when you already know the correct way to play it. Just because your villian raised with A9 doesn't mean that you did the right thing. Also be careful about hanging yourself with top pair. Your going to lose a lot of money with TPTK to two pair hands or sets. Its also good to remember that AK is an underdog against any pair.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter

Hero ($55.75)
UTG+1 ($29.40)
MP1 ($3.60)
MP2 ($43.05)
MP3 ($17.30)
CO ($25)
Button ($29.30)
SB ($26.55)
BB ($37.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $2.25</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($5.10) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, MP3 calls $5.

Turn: ($17.10) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9.05</font>, MP3 calls $9.05 (All-In).

River: ($35.20) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $35.20

They are 2-betting at 25NL with A9.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your raise UTG with AJo is silly. Fold that hand. Then you check raise the flop. Why, to fold out worse hands, but guarantee getting stacked by a set? Just lead out for 3/4 of the pot.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
See my other post in this thread for details.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh.. I hope you do very well in your poker career. You clearly don't need this forum though.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

This is 25nl, villain reraising pre and calling a re-re-raise means he has 77+ or any K or A, unless he's "bluffing" or "gambling" with 27o or whatever. However, if you want to be able to beat opponents on higher levels you will have to start giving your villains a little more credit than what is standard on 25nl. On higher levels they will for instance not pay you off(atleast mostly not) on A or K high flops with TT-QQ as they do all the time on 25nl.
I realize that you'll probably win alot of the time in these kinds of hands but it's just not good play

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

3-bet pf is ok depending on the opponent, but the amount sucks. it sounds to me that youre raising purely for information.

you also say you release to a 4-bet. if i held AA in villains hands, i would not 4-bet here at all. why would i want to possibly lose you? plus, id love to let you continue being the aggressor, especially w/me in position

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

You don't think I will alternate my play when I move up?

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

Would the typical players at 25NL do that? I don't think so.

I agree with you about the optiomal way to play AA in this situation, but I don't think most 25NL players are thinking that way when they have "weapons of mass destruction." They can't wait to put their chips in the middle.

FYI, I would never make that 3-bet against a player that I had a read on as being a tough, agressive player.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

You're silly!

Do you believe in monsters under the bed? If you're playing AJ UTG that weakly, then you are missing a lot of value in 25NL.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're silly!

Do you believe in monsters under the bed? If you're playing AJ UTG that weakly, then you are missing a lot of value in 25NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he's really not. And try not to criticize people who are trying to help your play too much.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

I always try to post hands that I think will create good discussion. I do think I played the hand correctly, but I'm open to arguments that I did not.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

Dude, that is not what I am saying at all. Everything I've learned about poker, I learned from this forum. I have made love for 2+2 and all posters.

I posted this hand because I thought it was interesting and that it would generate good discussion. I think it did, even if I don't agree 100% with what people are saying.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always try to post hands that I think will create good discussion. I do think I played the hand correctly, but I'm open to arguments that I did not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Judging by your responses to some of the responses which crticize your play, you aren't.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

I'm not just willing to concede that I made the wrong decision, but I'll try to be a little nicer. I certianly don't want to give the impression that I am a know-it-all.

At the same time, when people say "This is always incorrect." or "This is always wrong." I think they are being a little silly.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not just willing to concede that I made the wrong decision, but I'll try to be a little nicer. I certianly don't want to give the impression that I am a know-it-all.

At the same time, when people say "This is always incorrect." or "This is always wrong." I think they are being a little silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, since you didn't include a read, we have to assume that there isn't one, and without a read, there is a standard, typical way to play it, which is what people are suggsesting. If you have a read that suggests otherwise, it's important that you give it.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're silly!

Do you believe in monsters under the bed? If you're playing AJ UTG that weakly, then you are missing a lot of value in 25NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

What data do you have to back this up? Give me pokertracker positional statistics for yourself, comparing the EV of folding versus raising AJ in early position. Better yet, do it for 100 players with more than 10k hands in your database.

Please stop posting such incorrect and baseless advice like it is a fundamental truth. You are making a fool of yourself by doing this.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

Alright, fair enough. I've obviously been a little too flippent in my responses and I need to re-think them a little bit. Obviously I am just getting started and have a lot to learn.

In particular, the post you're quoting above was totally out of line. I'm really not trying to come off as this big of a jackass, it's just sort of happening. Apologies.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

I guess the point that Isura made about poker tracker really should make me shut up a little bit. I mean, obviously everything I am saying is in the context of playing only about 1k hands over the past few weeks. I don't have poker tracker yet and although I understand why it rules and all the implications of not having it, well, yeah. My argument sort of ends there.

I guess I'm also wary making decisions based on poker tracker for some weird reasons, but they mostly have to do with a biography I read of Bob McNamera.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, fair enough. I've obviously been a little too flippent in my responses and I need to re-think them a little bit. Obviously I am just getting started and have a lot to learn.

In particular, the post you're quoting above was totally out of line. I'm really not trying to come off as this big of a jackass, it's just sort of happening. Apologies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dangerous to post a hand and then have a snappy response for everyone who comments that indicate you already think you know how to best play the hand.

If that's the case, no reason to use these boards.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

Waxie I understand why you are getting snappy. Because we yell at your play almost every hand you post. However, there is a good reason we yell at your play almost every hand you post. You dont seem to care the slightest about what position you are in with your pre flop raises or reraises.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not just willing to concede that I made the wrong decision, but I'll try to be a little nicer. I certianly don't want to give the impression that I am a know-it-all.

At the same time, when people say "This is always incorrect." or "This is always wrong." I think they are being a little silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing wrong with disbelieving others and proving things to yourself. All great players do this (more or less) as they move up.

The thing is: you can begin to get an inkling that AJo will lose you money raising it UTG after you play 20,000-40,000 hands. Or, you can accept that if many of the Mods and high volume posters are saying the same thing, then there is probably a good reason for it.

TWP used to have Mr. Kool Aid as his avatar because he thought that posters on 2p2 were a little too willing to take certain ideas about the game as fact. But TWP also logs a great deal of hands and speaks based on a lot of experience.

What I'm saying is that you can keep your own council when reading these forums, but its a lot more beneficial when you have exhausted the resources of others, not when you are just starting out.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter

Hero ($55.75)
UTG+1 ($29.40)
MP1 ($3.60)
MP2 ($43.05)
MP3 ($17.30)
CO ($25)
Button ($29.30)
SB ($26.55)
BB ($37.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $2.25</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($5.10) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, MP3 calls $5.

Turn: ($17.10) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9.05</font>, MP3 calls $9.05 (All-In).

River: ($35.20) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $35.20

They are 2-betting at 25NL with A9.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't decide if the preflop raise or the call of the reraise is worse.

I don't see any hands that you have significant equity against that would reraise preflop. Maybe his range includes PP-AQ (AT?) only one of which you beat for anything at all.

Moreoff you are out of position. Flop play lets him off the hook and you are still behind most of his range. Flop bet/3 bet would be better.

Ug this hand gives me the shudders.

EDIT: AJ is a hand that fish lose some of the most money with because they call preflop raises with it and then hit their hand and think it's the nuts. I accept that a J high flop is better than an A high flop, but you are only going to get J as top pair like what, 10% of the time? I would much rather have 89s than AJo facing a raise even out of position. At least you could be confident that you are head if the money goes in...

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

in general I tighten up if I get reraised.....you are either folding out a dominated hand, or you are giving a better hand like Kk the chance to reraise you...see the flop cheap, if you flop an ace you are probably ahead, if you don't you are probably behind and I'd fold...that's how I tend to play it.

Re: Watch Waxie Move Up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your raise UTG with AJo is silly. Fold that hand. Then you check raise the flop. Why, to fold out worse hands, but guarantee getting stacked by a set? Just lead out for 3/4 of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you always fold AJo UTG??