Float like a butterfly
 

Decent Player who I stacked earlier when he had an overpair (but its a different table maybe he doesnt remember) raises to 65 in MP. I call on the button with AJs

He has 2700 and I cover

Flop J85 2 tone, he bets 125 I call

Turn 2, he checks I check

River offsuit A, he bets 45 I make it 400

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

standard?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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Decent Player who I stacked earlier when he had an overpair (but its a different table maybe he doesnt remember) 400

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Nah.

Hand looks good.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

What do u mean Lucky?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

that 45 is retarded - but yeah standard.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

Am I exposing myself to him pushing? I cant really call a push here can I?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

You were planning on folding to a push?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

I really have no clue, but do u think calling a push here for 3000 is automatic?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

if he raises u r dead.

edit - i thought board paired on turn, but whatev. if he is not a move maker u fold to push.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

Oh I momentarily got confused about which thread I was in, thought this was the set of 8s hand.

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I really have no clue, but do u think calling a push here for 3000 is automatic?

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I dont play these games, so I have no clue either. However, I would have a hard time laying down top 2 given the action.

These threads are great. Keep em coming.

Hiatus Over, indeed.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

If my plan is to raise and fold to a push should I just not raise?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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If my plan is to raise and fold to a push should I just not raise?

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No, you pretty much have to raise here. With a raise like that you will get bluff-reraised very rarely. I fold to a push.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

How do u like my line up to this point?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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How do u like my line up to this point?

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Looks good to me.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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How do u like my line up to this point?

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your playing way too scared; but your line is fine. Turn and flop are both ~50/50 for me.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

If I am playing way too scared here then u obviously cant like the line. I just figured the flop call and turn check helped me make the most and loose the least in a Way Ahead, Way Behind situation. Maybe that is not the right way to look at it

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

i don't see many reasons for not betting this turn.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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i don't see many reasons for not betting this turn.

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How about keeping the pot small and not wanting to get check-raised. He most likely has very few outs on the river.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

I would always bet this turn, but this is obviously my limit holdem brain talking.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

I would nearly always bet this turn, and I don't play limit holdem.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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I dont play these games, so I have no clue either. However, I would have a hard time laying down top 2 given the action.

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uhh, what do you put villian on that you are calling a push here?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

a turn bet is mandatory. 150 should do the trick. if he cr's you here its a godsend, saves you from seeing an expensive river. flat calling then betting 150 again shows incredible strength. and defines the hands. checking the turn sets yourself up for a very tough river where you are completely lost when he bets into you.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

How is the river hard to play when you check turn?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

Ok, given the turn check, what is your river line?

Call a pot sized bet, if checked to, 1/2 pot to pot it?

If the river is a K or Q do you find a fold if he pots it?

I assume the turn check is to allow for a near auto call on any reasonable river bet.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

for the people advocating a turn bet in this hand are you planning to bet the river as well? the turn check allows the villian a lot more room to put in some money with a worse hand, either as a bluff or as a skeptical call that thinks we missed our draw. barring some special info on how the villian or hero has been playing i dont think you really want both streets getting bet. im assuming this is a somewhat typical party 10-20 opponent.

even though there are some draws out most of the time thats not what the villian has. he will often be drawing pretty thin when losing and the draws can be just the thing that inspires him to put some more money in on the river when they miss, because it looks like thats what you had.

i think you played the hand fine.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

Thanks for the response limon, that is an interesting take on the situation. I have been lurking in this forum for years and u have always been an amazing poster so any help on my threads would be huge. I am not sure what to say about your suggested line, it could easily be the best. I was planning on calling pretty much any river, is it possible I could gain value in my turn check in inducing a bluff? Or is this definitely not the spot to induce bluffs (?) I could see that being the case. This game is funny, I checked the turn so I could play a small pot but you are saying bet the turn to play a small pot...

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

cwl is right again.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

Thanks for the post cwl,

"The turn check allows the villian a lot more room to put in some money with a worse hand, either as a bluff or as a skeptical call that thinks we missed our draw. barring some special info on how the villian or hero has been playing i dont think you really want both streets getting bet"

I think this is real important and maybe what swings me to still not minding my turn check. Now I can get paid off by TT or middle pair or something when they would have just folded to my bet on the turn. Showing "maximum strength" and "defining your hand" doesnt always seem right when u have the best hand.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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I dont play these games, so I have no clue either. However, I would have a hard time laying down top 2 given the action.

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uhh, what do you put villian on that you are calling a push here?

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That occured to me after I posted. If he pushes, hero is probably dead. But if villain is a good player, won't he be occasionally pushing on a bluff, knowing that hero can't call with less than a set? Or does that not happen much in this type of game?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

Limon, do you really think 150 is a good bet size on the turn? There is about 400 in the pot I think.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

U are right RMan there is 410 in the pot, I would like to hear limon's thoughts. Remember he is coming from a live perspective so the actual exact bet size is less important than it would be online. I think the exact # u decide to bet becomes more important in these online games. I think his point is that a set or another big hand would sometimes play a hand in this matter to maximum value so your opponent isnt gonna try to bluff raise u here. My guess is Ray Zee would not like this turn bet

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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for the people advocating a turn bet in this hand are you planning to bet the river as well?

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That depends on what I think he has. Most of the time, no.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

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But if villain is a good player, won't he be occasionally pushing on a bluff

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all that really matters is will he be pushing enough on a bluff to make calling getting < 2:1 profitable, no?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

Turnip, would u have raised the river? If so do u like the amount I chose?

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

yes I like the river raise and like the amount. I think I would make it a little more there (~500) but whatever, probably doesn't matter much IMO.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

btw I would have checked turn also but limon's reasoning has got me thinking twice about that, although for a one pair small pot type hand I really don't think checking can be that bad.

--turnipmonster

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw I would have checked turn also but limon's reasoning has got me thinking twice about that, although for a one pair small pot type hand I really don't think checking can be that bad.

--turnipmonster

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Could someone explain this in more detail please? To me, it seems like checking the turn and calling the river (assuming a normal bet, not this 45 dollar one) gets the same amount of money in and sees a showdown instead of just assuming the cr isnt a bluff. Also, it of course gets money in against the weaker elements of villian's range.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

I am not 100 percent clear on this concept either, but I am pretty sure limon is assuming the turn check-raise is rarely EVER a bluff. I think I agree

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

you didnt know he was going to bet 45 he could have bet $450. sure you call but your calling totally blind. it sucks to induce a bet you hate calling. there are many players, including myself, who overbet w/ a winner on the river after missing a cr on the turn.

Re: Float like a butterfly
 

you need to bet enough that a CR definitely isnt a play based on "sensing" weakness. i think the way the bets have progeressed $150 following a CC looks strong.