What\'s your river action?
 

Juicy 20/40 Foxwoods.

4 terrible limpers to an loose aggressive player who raises in LP, the SB calls and I call with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

7 take the flop for 7BBs

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet, one limper calls, LAG raises, SB folds, I call, limper calls.

3 to the turn for 9.75BBs

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

I check limper checks, LP bets, I call, limper folds.

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

What's your river action?

Comments on all street appreciated, thank you.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Does he bet a lot of rivers? I think you have enough of a hand here against overaggressive types to check-raise.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

3-bet the flop. Pot's plenty big, and I'm thinking having that limper around does you more harm than good.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Joe,

Checkraise would probably work as he is LAG.

If you have a solid read that he is overplaying AK the whole way I may (on spunky days) be tempted to bet and try to get three out of him. Of course two kings are already accounted for so it less likely and if you thought he had AK you should have put another raise in before the river....so yeah run of the mill checkraise unless your sure he has ak.

Flop - OK

Turn - Provides interesting spot to semi-bluff check raise him and shut limper out too.

River - See above

Orange

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I think betting out is a must. The last thing you want him to do is check it through. Unless you are 100% certain he will bet, you have to bet.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Check raise...he's betting.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I would 3-bet this flop. Even heads-up you would have a slight advantage over an overpair other than KK and are close to even money against something like AJ, there is a reasonable chance you could win unimproved, and you have a 2nd opponent to consider.

I think check/raising the river given the action on the previous rounds is best. A loose/aggressive bets this river almost every time.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

What do you put the LP on?

Since he raised the flop and bet the turn, he's most likely has AA-JJ or AJ and your only ahead of AA, QQ and AJ. I suppose that he might also have 88. I doubt that he has AK or AQ here.

If he has QQ or AJ, will he bet it on the river? I'm not sure, but I think that I bet and call a raise, because I wouldn't like calling a 3-bet here, if he does have KK or JJ

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I like betting out here-- the K is a scare card unless he has one and he might check behind. If he is really loose aggressive you might get 3 bets out of him if he has one of the other kings too.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Hey Nate,

I'm out of my element when playing limit, but don't you want to keep the limper in the hand on the flop? Wont 3-betting sometimes drop the limper and cost you bets on later streets if you hit your draw? I like the call vs. the 3-bet.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

What do you put the LP on?

This is the problem. He was aggressive enough that the range was wide.

I suppose that he might also have 88.

This I doubted, I hold one of the 8s.

I doubt that he has AK or AQ here.

It was on my list.

I'm not sure, but I think that I bet and call a raise, because I wouldn't like calling a 3-bet here

I think his is the correct line.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

3-bet the flop. Pot's plenty big, and I'm thinking having that limper around does you more harm than good.

He was a pretty poor player and would call nearly any flop w/any piece, Ax and the like.

I was hoping to collect more callers and likely 3-bet and was surprised that I did not.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I agree, if he is truly LAG, and the limpers are terrible (and he knows it), then he's probably raising any (suited) paint here...so in addition to your hands, things like KQ or QJ or JT are all highly probable and all hands that he would raise the flop and bet the turn (maybe not KQ on the turn but who knows).

even if you limit yourself to AA-JJ and AJ, there are 18 combinations of hands you beat (6 each of AA QQ AJ) and 4 that you lose to (1 way KK and 3 ways JJ). If we start including things like suited paint and medium pairs, again the combinations of the number of hands you beat (QJ, JT, etc) are much greater than the hands you lose to (1 way 88, 3 ways KJ).

Joe is right, bet the river.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I think it's very important to checkraise the turn here or at least 3 bet the flop.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I almost fully agree with you, although it might be for different reasons. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I would lean towards 3 betting the flop and seeing what happens next.

But what about the river? Would bet out if you played it like hero? Or would you try the check raise? I would probably bet out.

`dude

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Nate,

I'm out of my element when playing limit, but don't you want to keep the limper in the hand on the flop? Wont 3-betting sometimes drop the limper and cost you bets on later streets if you hit your draw? I like the call vs. the 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's ahead of thet Button even a small fraction of the time, which given the description of the player, he probably is, then it would be in his overwhelming best interest to play it heads up against the LAG, as his pair of 8's is much more likely to hold up without futher improvement. The pot is also large enough that the limper may call two more cold, which is is +EV for him.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

The dumbest post i've seen lately.If you don't call the river with two pair i don't know why you calling preflop in the first place.

War and peace.thank you

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

The dumbest post i've seen lately.If you don't call the river with two pair i don't know why you calling preflop in the first place.

Hahahahaha!

GoT

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The dumbest post i've seen lately.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why am I thinking the same about your post?

Guido

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, if he is truly LAG, and the limpers are terrible (and he knows it), then he's probably raising any (suited) paint here...so in addition to your hands, things like KQ or QJ or JT are all highly probable and all hands that he would raise the flop and bet the turn (maybe not KQ on the turn but who knows).

even if you limit yourself to AA-JJ and AJ, there are 18 combinations of hands you beat (6 each of AA QQ AJ) and 4 that you lose to (1 way KK and 3 ways JJ). If we start including things like suited paint and medium pairs, again the combinations of the number of hands you beat (QJ, JT, etc) are much greater than the hands you lose to (1 way 88, 3 ways KJ).

Joe is right, bet the river.


[/ QUOTE ]
Dante,

I agree with all of this except the last part. If you feel Joe is this likely to be ahead (which I think is obvious) and the opponent is truly LAG, then why not check/raise the river? I think there is a very slim chance the opponent either checks it through or folds to the raise.

If Joe played this as aggressively as I normally would then I'd definitely lead the river but given his fairly passive line on this hand I just don't see why check/raising wouldn't be the best play on the river. Now if I felt the opponent was very likely to raise with many hands I beat I could see the argument but I think he would bet and call a raise with many more hands than he would raise with.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

My take.

Preflop: Call
Flop: Check and Call
Turn: Check and Call
River: Bet

-Zeno

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

The dumbest post i've seen lately.If you don't call the river with two pair i don't know why you calling preflop in the first place.

So you're the moron that thought of folding.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Joe, regarding other player involved:
[ QUOTE ]

He was a pretty poor player and would call nearly any flop w/any piece, Ax and the like.


[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that give you even more incentive to three-bet the flop then?

P.S. I bet and call a raise on the river.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Doesn't that give you even more incentive to three-bet the flop then?

Toss in Nate's break down and you're right on. It sure went through my head, as a turn check-raise did. I think I backed right into that one, nice point.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I like the flop c/r better because you'll lead the turn no matter what and, if you're 3 bet, you know he's leading the turn. That puts money in the pot and eliminates the risk of a free turn, which could have happened here.

The other reason I like the flop c/r is, although you have a big draw with other outs, the pot is nice and protecting what is middle pair right now isn't a bad idea.

I bet the river because I've gotten away from going for the c/r h/u.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I like the flop c/r better because you'll lead the turn no matter what and, if you're 3 bet, you know he's leading the turn

I wasn't about to shut out all those limpers with a flop check-raise. I wanted them to call 1 bet as they were sandwiched between me and the LAG, picking up equity on my big draw.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop. Pot's plenty big, and I'm thinking having that limper around does you more harm than good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Where did folding enter the picture here?
What is the basis of this post?
What are you talking about?
What planet are you from?
...

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Your post it's dumd Joe.Period.Especially if you ask what to do on the river.........Than talking about moron business I wasn't the one that thought that Larry Bird was black.
War and peace,thank you

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Joe,

you plan on being at Foxwoods this weekend?
I will be there tonight and maybe must of saturday (Just curious even though I dont play 20/40)

I just moved to CT and trying to get some time in up there.
I love the 5-10 Kill game...easy game to beat.

I want to sit at the 10/20 one if these weekends.

LMAO! Well Said, GoT...
 

I was going to try to post something clever, but I don't think that it could top that...

ML4L

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

So what do you think you should do on the river?

a) Fold
b) Check-call
c) Check-raise and call a 3-bet
d) Check-raise and fold to a 3-bet
e) Bet and call a raise
f) Bet and 3-bet a raise

If it's so obvious, please enlighten us all. We all know it isn't A but you think it's a dumb question so please give us the obvious answer.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Strassa,

First off, that limper isn't going anywhere if he has a flush draw. So, more money from him is good. Second, if he has just overcards (or even one overcard), you want the limper to fold, so that your pair of eights might hold up. Third, and possibly most importantly, this might let him take the pot down with a river bet if, for example, T9 misses the straight but makes a pair. Lastly, I'd think him to be the favorite over LAG's range of hands. So more money from him is good too.

You probably don't want to c-r the turn, because that probably will knock out the limper, and if Joe didn't improve on the turn, he probably wouldn't be the favorite vs. LAG anymore.

That's pretty much what Nate said, but I felt like posting anyway.

Mike

PS How many posts have you made today, son? 50?!

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Hey Joe,

Make it one more vote for 3-betting the flop.

I'd bet the river and call a raise.

ML4L

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The dumbest post i've seen lately.If you don't call the river with two pair i don't know why you calling preflop in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to try to insult someone, try a bit harder to not sound like an idiot.


(Anyways, I bet the river and call a raise.)

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

Larry Bird is white???

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

I like your bet out on the flop. At first I thought you should re-raise (trying to get LP pot committed with your big hand), but upon reflection, I like your call better. If the guy in the middle has a spade draw, he has some of your outs so why not keep him in there donating. (His money is drawing almost dead unless he has A-high spades, in which case he's not going anywhere.)

Check-call the turn is fine for the same reason. Sorry the limper bails.

On the river, I figure you have the best hand. If I think LP will bet an AJ or QQ, I'll go for a check and raise. If he looks like he might check I'll bet out. You describe LP as loose agressive, so I don't see a way to put him on AA. (If it were me in your seat, I'd go for the check raise, get re-raised, make a crying call and get shown KJo; but you play better. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

P.S. I can't see why anybody would want to fold this hand on any street...

RESULTS
 

When in doubt...check-raise. The LAG 3-bet, DOH!, I called.

He flipped over KJo [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img], true to a LAG on the river indeed.

So the concensus seems to be:

Bet out on the flop.
3-bet the flop.
Check/call the turn.
Bet the river.

Thanks you for all the responses.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: RESULTS
 

Joe, I'm extremely suprised you didn't 3 bet this flop. I think it's definately the correct move.

On the river I bet and call a raise.

Re: What\'s your river action?
 

If you really think you are ahead you will make the most money by betting the flop, calling the raise. Then, leading the turn, all the while trying to trap the limper for extra bets. PLus you have a nice draw to fall back on if your read is wrong and you are behind