Chinese poker books
 

I know this might be in the archives somewhere, and I apologize for not taking the time to look it up. Can anyone provide me with their opinion of Don Smolen's book on Chinese Poker, as well as the software that he also sells? Also, are there any other resources you recommend for learning more perfectly how to set your hands?

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Chinese poker books
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know this might be in the archives somewhere, and I apologize for not taking the time to look it up. Can anyone provide me with their opinion of Don Smolen's book on Chinese Poker, as well as the software that he also sells? Also, are there any other resources you recommend for learning more perfectly how to set your hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to learn Chinese Poker now? Stick to Hold'em; it's not like you're a world champion at that or anything.

As far as the Smolen book, I was under the impression that it was the only book of its kind. If that's true, then it's the best in the world.

~D

Re: Chinese poker books
 

When Pokerroom.com first offered Chinese Poker, I bought Smolen's book and software to learn the game. It took me about a day of reading the book and practicing on the software until I was pretty good. I then proceeded to rip through the Pokerroom games until all the suckers had lost interest about a week later.

Smolen's approach to valuing a hand setting is not optimal (nor does he claim that it is), but I'd guess that it will provide you with the best setting a very large majority of the time. And when it gets it wrong, I think it's probably not wrong by too much.

Setting my hands the Smolen way (at least when I didn't screw it up.. hehe) allowed me to tear through the Pokerroom games. Suckers really have no chance in this game. I never came even close to having a losing night.

I don't know in what setting you plan to play Chinese Poker, but the game is just tricky enough that I bet a bunch of people you will play with will screw it up. Even if they are all good, the Smolen way will almost certainly allow you to hold your own while you wait for a different game.

One thing that Smolen doesn't discuss in his book or software is ADJUSTING your setting to take advantage of systematic mistakes your opponents might make. For instance, on Pokerroom, players tended to backload their hand, overloading the back and leaving the front very weak. So a correct adjustment would be sometimes to weaken your front hand a little bit if the weaker hand is still likely to beat whatever your opponents might have up front. Smolen doesn't address this sort of stuff.

I'd say that the software was far more valuable to me than the book. But the book is necessary if you hope to play correctly when you have two pair between the middle and front hands. Learning to do that is extremely tedious, though.

Anyway, AFAIK, Smolen's stuff is the only thing going. If you plan to play the game for any kind of money, it's almost certainly worth $60 (or whatever he charges) and day or two of your time.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Chinese poker is going to be a part of Super System 2 when it comes out soon. I believe that section of the book is being written by Johnny Chan.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

[ QUOTE ]
You want to learn Chinese Poker now? Stick to Hold'em; it's not like you're a world champion at that or anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the big mixed games, you're playing limit poker. I really don't like playing limit holdem. And actually, I'm not that big a fan of no-limit holdem outside of a tournament setting (although I do like pot limit holdem). So, in these games, I prefer the hi-lo games, and am liking triple draw lowball quite well also. However, you sometimes have to play the games that are being played, and chinese is sometimes one of them. I'd rather learn how to play it well, as opposed to sitting out that round, or playing a losing version of it.



[/ QUOTE ]As far as the Smolen book, I was under the impression that it was the only book of its kind. If that's true, then it's the best in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm trying to find out. I also did not know of anything else. Even if it's the only thing out there, I didn't want to study it if it's not a good book. Sometimes bad information is worse than no information at all. ;-)

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Chinese poker books
 

I would also recommended looking up threads on RGP about Chinese Poker. Pay attention to Negreanu's contributions. He writes about his strategy, and adjusting it to take advantage of the weaker CP players in the big games (setting hands incorrectly). Since I am assuming you will play against Daniel, or other players who have, this might be to your advantage.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Hi Greg,

If you order the book or software and don't think it's worth the money, I'll cheerfully send you a refund.

Don

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Well, I can't beat that offer. I'll order it right now.

BTW, good timing on your first post here. ;-)

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Are you sure thats really him???

StuR

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Don - You should give Fossilman a discount because I'll probably buy a copy too.

I looked at your website. Stupid question but how can you play Cpoker with more than four people?

Thanks, Legian

Re: Chinese poker books
 

For instance, on Pokerroom, players tended to backload their hand, overloading the back and leaving the front very weak. So a correct adjustment would be sometimes to weaken your front hand a little bit if the weaker hand is still likely to beat whatever your opponents might have up front. Smolen doesn't address this sort of stuff.

Were they playing with royalties on Pokerroom?

Re: Chinese poker books
 

I got good at poker by playing in a game at the University of Pennsylvania against seven super players. Four of them found reknown in gambling related fields. Donald Smolen was one of them. nuf said.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

5 is actually a very good number. One player (in rotation) sits out each deal and deals the next hand, using a 2nd deck. This eliminates the delay between hands. After dealing, that player can use the remaining time to get drinks, etc. For true degenerates, there's no reason the sitting-out player can't bet on one of the other players, paying and collecting as if he also had that hand.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Don,

If it wasn't clear in my original post on this thread, I found your book and software to be very well done, and it made me good money after a very brief (one day) learning curve.

Thank you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Ed

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Most poker players I know won't even play Chinese poker with me. It's a skill game and involves a lot less luck than other variations of poker. The only time I can play Chinese Poker is in Hong Kong where the game is played for high stakes.

Anyways, I did not know such a book existed, but am intrigued enough now and will order it.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

man, this book is going to be on the NY Times bestseller list because of this thread.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

In Houston in the 90's, I saw a game that was 6-7 handed. They had shuffled two decks together. I wish I had made some notes on how the payout structure worked--it was easily the most time-consuming part of the game, with arguments in mutually unintelligible languages. I remember thinking that the scoring was a cross between Boston whist and hearts, with the loser paying everybody who beat him. Pretty high stakes, too.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Ed,

Thanks for the kind words. In fairness, let me mention that a friend made me aware of this thread by sending me a link to your earlier post. He referred to you as "the author of the best book on Hold'em I've ever read".

What exactly do you mean when you say "small stakes"?

Don

Re: Chinese poker books
 

What exactly do you mean when you say "small stakes"?

The book concentrates on tactics for loose games. Specifically, we focus on games where your opponents play far too many hands preflop and play them poorly after the flop.

These games are ubiquitous at small limits: Essentially every game $4-$8 and below fits this description. But often games at higher limits also fit quite well... many $10-$20 to $20-$40 games in Las Vegas, those limits (and sometimes even higher) in California, and (I'm told, though I have never played it) the Party $15-$30 game.

The book focuses on exploiting the mistakes of a specific class of player. The tactics are extremely effective against that player type, but they can leave you vulnerable if you try to apply them against strong players.

For instance, we emphasize betting mediocre hands, such as (perhaps) ace-eight on a K842T board, for value. These bets show solid profit against loose and passive players who will often be at the river with a pair smaller than your eights, and who will tend not to raise you with a better pair or small two pair.

But betting in all these situations tends to turn you into what some strong players refer to as a "betting station," and it will get you into trouble against those players. That is, it is a not a game-theoretically optimal strategy, and so it can be exploited by a counter strategy.

But the ideas in the book are very powerful for getting the most out of acutal limit hold 'em games as they are played today at small limits and also often well up through the mid-limits.

My suggestion
 

Just play double hand instead. The action moves alot quicker and you don't have to worry about being the live one.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Been livin' in Thailand for the past few years and make it to HongKong a couple times a year? Are there established Chinese poker rooms, places to play in Maccaou? Just wondering how one might find a game if not a local.

or any pokergames in Asia for that matter.

Sat at a Paigow table in Cambodia but the payout structure make it a losing bet/ though the dealers tend to make some obvious mistakes.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

huge props for "nuf"

UPenn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I got good at poker by playing in a game at the University of Pennsylvania against seven super players. Four of them found reknown in gambling related fields. Donald Smolen was one of them. nuf said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are any of these guys still at UPenn? (maybe as professors or something) I'm at law school there now.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

I've played this Chinese Poker with some Philipino friends. they called it Russian Poker. In their variation they simplify the payout structure in that the dealer is called the banker. Everyone takes turns dealing/banking.

Everyone compares their hands only with the banker. If you win 2 out of 3 you get paid 1 unit. If you win all 3 you get 2 units. No one really gets hurt. A very friendly home variation I guess.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've played this Chinese Poker with some Philipino friends. they called it Russian Poker. In their variation they simplify the payout structure in that the dealer is called the banker. Everyone takes turns dealing/banking.

Everyone compares their hands only with the banker. If you win 2 out of 3 you get paid 1 unit. If you win all 3 you get 2 units. No one really gets hurt. A very friendly home variation I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played this version, it was called pasoi where I played it. I'm curious now about the strategy, it did not seem like that rich of a game, but perhaps I am missing some subtlety.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

I have Optimal Strategy for Pai Gow Poker by Stanford Wong. It is a short book, but it goes into great detail about the best ways to set your hand. I believe it's a classic.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Uh oh.

[ QUOTE ]
I've played this version, it was called pasoi where I played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing about pasoi is that it's a name for about 4 different games. 2's or 3's might be high, depending on the version. Sometimes you make some number of ahnds and compare, and sometimes you discard in turn matching "hand types" that must beat the last discarded type.

Just wanting to point this out before people start chiming in with: "THAT'S NOT PASOI!" Since it is. They all are, depending on who you ask.

~D

Re: Chinese poker books
 

I havn't read this thread in a while but my reaction when reading was that he really didn't understand what "optimal" meant at all. I'd be mighty careful taking his advice unless one really understood what what was being said.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Pai Gow and chinese (also called russian or 13 card) are different games (although they share some structure).

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Yeah I played another game with my Philipino friends called Pasoi Dos or Vietnamese Poker. 4 players get dealt 12 cards each. 4 get mucked randomly during the deal.

Whoever has a certain 3 (I think spade) starts the play by flipping it over either by itself or as part of a pair, trips, quads, straight, flush or tight. Next player has to beat that hand using the same number of cards. ie if Player 1 plays the lone 3 Player 2 can play a 3 of higher suit (I forget the order of suits) or any higher card. If player 1 plays trip 3s, Player 2 has to play higher trips. Play rotates around the table like this until no one can or wants to beat the board. Last person to play then can lay down any hand they want. 1 card, pair, trips etc. and it gets done again.

It's been ahwile since we played this but I think deuces are the highest rank. Everything else is normal.

Anyhow first person to play all their cards wins. Everyone pays you one bet.

If you play a deuce as part of your last play that's Pasoi Dos and they all pay double.

Strategy involves sometimes passing when it is your turn to play even if you can beat the board. It is sometimes better to wait.

Re: Chinese poker books
 

Yeah the 'dos' part is 2, IIRC.

The rank of suits is another variable. I've seen diamonds and clubs be low.

~D